Flying races?

[RaZZer99]

I am considering adding a playable race of flying angelic winged humanoids to my campaign world, but I'm rather unsure as to how to proceede. Clearly flying is a great advantage for a starting character and would need to be balanced accordingly. I would like this race to be ECL +0 or +1 at the most. What would one recommend as added disadvantages to balance out the race? If anyone has their own flying races, I'd appreciate taking a look at them for inspiration Thanks.

 

[the Jester]

I don't think you can make a viable flying race without a level adjustment of at least +2. Anything you do to balance it at low levels will kill it at high levels.

Flight is a huge advantage. According to Savage Species, you should give abilities a level adjustment such that they come into play at about the same time for other characters; so figuring that flight comes at a minimum via alter self- and that only lasts a little while- which is 3rd level caster or higher material- I think you're asking for trouble.

I've tried out things with flying pcs in the past. It lets them get past many, if not most, traps (no hitting pressure plates, falling in pits, etc), evade many monsters (and kill them from a distance), etc.

 

[Tonguez]

The 'Flying race IMC' starts with the ability to Glide (Slow Fall) for 30 ft and is ECL+1. The ability to Fly is made a Feat and starts at Poor with another Feat for each manouverability increase.

I also thought about making Fly a Skill but as no-one has played an Avian PC yet it hasn't been an issue.

 

[Spatzimaus]

I don't think it's possible to make a good flying race with ECL +0.

Flight is a wonderful thing in a set-piece campaign. By the time my group was 7th level, each of us had found some method of flight, whether it was Wings of Flying, the spell, whatever. I was in a campaign once (9th level), where the DM just flat out said "no flight, no spider climbing, no wind walking, no teleporting..." because he was so sick of us just bypassing any challenges he came up with. It wasn't that he couldn't come up with things on the fly, it was just that it really made the adventures boring if we all just flew everywhere. He'd have to find some way to introduce flying nasties, and that begged the question, if there were so many flying predators, why hadn't anyone noticed them before now?

But Flight as a racial ability is tougher. All those movement abilities I mentioned above are useful, but they're also somewhat interchangeable and fairly easy to get once you bring magic into the equation. So, while at low level wings are easily a +1 or higher in their own rights, at high level they're either worthless or even a liability (you've got big wings on your back that you have to hide/protect/whatever). Many templates seem to compensate for this by giving abilities that scale up with level/HD (a Half-Celestial's spell-like abilities, for example).

Unfortunately, because of this I don't think there's any way to make an ECL +0 race that involves flying. You'd have to give it a bunch of negative stats to compensate at low levels, and those would either be meaningless (like saying "can't wear armor", since they'd just go spellcaster) or crippling at high levels. Giving it a dinky speed or maneuverability class isn't much of a downside, because the key is that the flying ability is THERE.
It's like exceptional ground speed past about 50': you just say "I go there" and the DM says "okay", and having the ability at all allows you to trivialize the challenge. Giving a Fly speed of 30' doesn't stop you from getting out of melee range of that Colossal Scorpion, at which point you can just pincushion him to death with arrows.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

He'd have to find some way to introduce flying nasties, and that begged the question, if there were so many flying predators, why hadn't anyone noticed them before now?

because they have some sort of air elemental like disadvantage if they or their opponent is touching the ground, so they only hang out above a certain hight, of course. Every environment should have its hazards which aren't apparent from the outside.

Giving it a dinky speed or maneuverability class isn't much of a downside, because the key is that the flying ability is THERE.
It's like exceptional ground speed past about 50': you just say "I go there" and the DM says "okay", and having the ability at all allows you to trivialize the challenge. Giving a Fly speed of 30' doesn't stop you from getting out of melee range of that Colossal Scorpion, at which point you can just pincushion him to death with arrows.

I think you're missing the real downside of low manuverability. Less than good can't hover. You must be constantly in motion, and if your DM lets you shoot arrows at all when exerting yourself and moving (much less without feats and penalties) of course it isn't a disadvantage...

Technically, if you can't hover, I'd think you must have Shot on the Run to use any ranged weapon while in flight. Thats the FOURTH feat in a chain, harder to get than spring attack. I don't know if there is any feat that allows you to cast a spell during a move. Low manuverabilty could also concievably reduce your dex bonus to AC while flying - if you can't make sudden turns or stop and go backwards, you can't really dodge.

I think a flight race can easily have no level adjustment if you scale the manuverabilty and more importantly ENFORCE the manuverability.

Kahuna burger

 

[DreamChaser]

And in keeping with this, set a minimum space for flight. It isn't in the rules, I know, but I'm sorry: a human sized creature in flight needs a huge amount of space for wings. Even if the creature had hollow bones, they would still need a wing span of 20 to 30 feet. If their flight is supplimented by magic to reduce their wing span, then they have to fear anti-magic. Even D&D realizes the constraint: there aren't many subterranean winged beasties.

In order to take off, most birds must jump (or fall) into the air because their wings are too big to flap effectively when they are on the ground. Their wings must be spread to the limit. It is even worse for bats: most grounded bats must climb to a place to take off: they are incapable of taking off from the ground. The anime image of a winged person flicking the tips of their wings and taking off is absurd. If flight were that easy, we'd all be doing it.

A winged creature would have equipment and clothing restrictions. In order to support her, a winged humanoid's wings would have to extend along much of their torso if not further. The weight and movement restriction of nearly any armor would prevent flight (although gliding might still be an option).

Feathers and chiten (the substance of insect wings) are fragile and flamable. Both are useless when wet (water birds have oils on their feathers to allow them to stay dry but other birds must dry off if they get too wet). Bat like wings are not flamable but they are horribly fragile to piercing and (because skin soaks up water) if they get soaked, they become too heavy for flight.

And so on.

The realties of non-magical winged flight make the life of an adventurer seem all the more perilous. If run right a non-ECLed race with wings is no problem but many players might not want to play it.

DC

 

[Kahuna Burger]

And in keeping with this, set a minimum space for flight. It isn't in the rules, I know, but I'm sorry: a human sized creature in flight needs a huge amount of space for wings. Even if the creature had hollow bones, they would still need a wing span of 20 to 30 feet.

size is tricky for a winged humanoid as well. If you are going for small wirey frame and hollow bones, you could impose strength and carrying capacity penalities of a small creature but the ac, attack and hide penalties of a large one. (assuming average size is medium.)

In order to take off, most birds must jump (or fall) into the air because their wings are too big to flap effectively when they are on the ground. Their wings must be spread to the limit. It is even worse for bats: most grounded bats must climb to a place to take off: they are incapable of taking off from the ground. The anime image of a winged person flicking the tips of their wings and taking off is absurd. If flight were that easy, we'd all be doing it.

A running or falling start rule for low manuverability would add to its balancing factor in flight a lot. Lets say average flight on a bigger than tiny creature requires a leaping or falling start, poor is running (as running jump) or falling, clumsy must get a falling start. Falling start height proportional to size of course.

A winged creature would have equipment and clothing restrictions. In order to support her, a winged humanoid's wings would have to extend along much of their torso if not further. The weight and movement restriction of nearly any armor would prevent flight (although gliding might still be an option).

yeah, no skinny connections to the shoulder blades... we're talking glutes to pecs...

Feathers and chiten (the substance of insect wings) are fragile and flamable. Both are useless when wet (water birds have oils on their feathers to allow them to stay dry but other birds must dry off if they get too wet). Bat like wings are not flamable but they are horribly fragile to piercing and (because skin soaks up water) if they get soaked, they become too heavy for flight.

Perhaps in addition to the massive damage fort save, there should be some sort of massive damage rule for flight. the majority of the "non killing" damage a winged creature is gonna take will be to the wings after all...

The realties of non-magical winged flight make the life of an adventurer seem all the more perilous. If run right a non-ECLed race with wings is no problem but many players might not want to play it.

I'm sure many still would for flavor if nothing else. And if you live to high levels and can take feats along the way to improve manuverability and attacks on the wing, it could eventually be a nice little bonus that you don't have to sweat the antimagic while flying. But its definitly not inherently overpowered...

Kahuna burger

 

[Sir Whiskers]

I have a player running a character from a flying race and, given this experience, I have to admit I probably won't allow another in the future (or if I do, it will have to be in a campaign where the pc's start at mid-level or higher). Two specific problems I've encountered:

1) His flying speed is too high. The race was designed by another GM and he gave this race fly 50' (average). So the character not only has flight, but is much faster than many of the other party members. Fly 30' (average) is more reasonable as a racial ability.

2) I try to enforce the maneuverabilty rules, but in the heat of combat, with so many things going on, I forget more often than not. I do at least remember to enforce wingspan, so no flying through 10' passages.

The race is +1 ECL, with other adjustments. I figure flying alone is worth +1, all else being equal. But given the hassles I've had with this character, I just don't recommend it (to the GM) for any character lower than 8th-level or so. And even then, enforcing the limitations on the ability may take more time and effort than it's worth.

 

[gpetruc]

I have made a race of winged elves with the following stats:
* +2 Dex / -4 Con (frail)
* flight 60 (average) only with light armor/load. Also, at least 15ft of space is required (due to wingspan) to fly (thus is usable nearly only outside)
* can't use large weapons (except longspear) while flying
* needs custom armor
* +2 spot (+4 if targets are at more than 100ft away) & low light vision
* -2 to saves against fire (wings burn easily)

With these, I think it can be easily a +0 ECL

 

[DreamChaser]

That reminds me of another restriction of a flying creature:

Imagine if you will carrying a 90 lb backpack that keeps moving while you wear it...now bry to use your arms to do anything useful while this is happening.

While I understand that a flying creature would become used to using their arms while flying, they would still be limited by their body and so I would say that the ability to use anything more complicated than a crossbow or spear would suffer some penalties.

This one might be overcritical, but the whole idea of the thread is to come up with the realities of a flying PC race to see if a ECL 0 race could be created.

Speaking of...has anyone ever made a race with a negative ECL..one that is so weak the character can start at level two and still be only on par with a level 1 character? Probably a new thread.

DC