Focusing on Combat Maneuvers... is it worth it?

[Khitan]

Ok... since I'm new to PF I need your help again.
This time it isn't for a specific build but for a better understanding of the possibilities of combat xD

In PF there are a lot of CMs, from the usual ones (trip, bull rush, ecc...) to the APG's ones (dirty trick, ecc...). The mechanics are also simplier than in 3.5... so my question is: is it worth it to create a character focused in CMs? Wich ones are better and why? Which ones are really bad? Giving up a better damage output (and stuff like that) to trip/overrun/ecc... an enemy isa good choice? Why?

 

[tylermalan]

I guess it really heavily depends on what you mean by "worth it." First, let me get the obvious things out of the way...

If your party needs damage, it isn't worth it. If your party doesn't, it might be. If you need your feats for other things, it isn't worth it. If you don't, it might be.

With those things covered, I think the only two really worth focusing on are trip and grapple. If the enemy is prone because of a trip, that's a pretty big bonus for your group in terms of damage output and also in terms of tactical options (because it is a move action for the enemy to stand).

As for grapple, I'm playing in a Carrion Crown game right now, and just reached level 5 (started at level 1). The group has a druid with a snake animal companion, and this thing grapples all the time. It has turned every fight with 3 or less enemies into super easy mode. Of course, it gets bonuses to grappling that normal characters might not get, which means...

Enter the feats! So, if you spend the feats on them, it might be worth it. If you don't, it is definitely not worth it.

 

[Dingo333]

I would add bull rush to tylermalan's list

With the right feats, you can shield bash and bull rush and there is even a ranger build focused on doing that.

Trip is great, druid (scythe/wolf) can make good use of it as can a magus.

My current charracter is a level 7 staff magus with a +15 to trip. (+7 arcana to change bab to magus level, +4 STR, +2 Feat, +2 weapon) His usual round is trip this guy, cast at that guy, smack this guy when he gets up. Repeat

Most others are not worth the time, though disarm and sunder can be if you want someone who takes his prey alive

 

[Khitan]

And what about Dirty Trick? It was the one that intrigued me...

 

[Dingo333]

And what about Dirty Trick? It was the one that intrigued me...

so you basically make your foe lose his next move action. Do not fool yourself into thinking it will ever last more than a round. And you are still sitting in front of the guy you did it too. You are gonna get smacked, hard. Trip, you can at least hit them when they try to get up (also a move action)

It is a flavorful little maneuver but not a good one

 

[IronWolf]

I have a PFS character I have GM'ed a couple of games for who has a character who makes very handy use of disarm. It has helped out in several combats against weapon wielding enemies. They have been lower level scenarios so far.

 

[wolff96]

so you basically make your foe lose his next move action. Do not fool yourself into thinking it will ever last more than a round. And you are still sitting in front of the guy you did it too. You are gonna get smacked, hard. Trip, you can at least hit them when they try to get up (also a move action)

Actually, this differs from our group's experience with Dirty Trick a great deal.

At the VERY least, you're denying a full attack against monsters that have multiple strikes. A bear that has to clear it's eyes is only going to get a single swipe against your character, rather than claw-claw-bite. The same is true of human opponents with iterative attacks.

On top of that, once you get 6 BAB, you can pick up the "Greater Dirty Trick" feat for an additional bonus, longer duration, and a STANDARD action to clear the condition. At that point, you're denying a round's worth of actions as a trade for your attack. Kicking a dragon in a sensitive spot and denying him everything but a move? Priceless.

I'm not saying it's perfect, but we've got a defensive fighter in my current party who frequently uses Dirty Trick (and has the feat chain) and it has proven invaluable against bigger foes. It's not the solution to every fight -- when it's lots of little guys, just hit them -- but our fighter has turned the tide multiple times when the party was on the ropes. It's really beginning to get on the DM's nerves, since most of our battles end up looking like the Three Stooges are in town, but it's undeniably effective.

Not to mention that the dual-wielding rogue who flanks with the fighter just loves it when he blinds them... Sneak Attack goodness.

 

[Bloodspoor]

Deleted.

 

[Dingo333]

Actually, this differs from our group's experience with Dirty Trick a great deal.

Any maneuver can ruin a DM's plan in a heart beat. One of the players accidently disarmed a monster, causing its death (Heros system but the same could happen in PF)

At the VERY least, you're denying a full attack against monsters that have multiple strikes. A bear that has to clear it's eyes is only going to get a single swipe against your character, rather than claw-claw-bite. The same is true of human opponents with iterative attacks.

Or, say you blinded a bear and it just full attacks you anyway, it still has a +13 to hit with 3 attacks, sure the rouge may kill it on their action but all that is protecting you is a 50% miss chance, odds are, at least 1 attack is gonna hit, possibly 2. Even if you did a shaken it is only a -2 to hit

On top of that, once you get 6 BAB, you can pick up the "Greater Dirty Trick" feat for an additional bonus, longer duration, and a STANDARD action to clear the condition. At that point, you're denying a round's worth of actions as a trade for your attack. Kicking a dragon in a sensitive spot and denying him everything but a move? Priceless.

Too bad it is level 7 to get it for all but the fighter. And most. like the rouge, have to wait till level 11 to get it.

It is also not just 1 attack, it is all your attacks that round (2-4 of them)

P.S. Go ahead and kick a dragon in a sensitive spot, you will be food as they pretty much ignore the penalty till it is over

I'm not saying it's perfect, but we've got a defensive fighter in my current party who frequently uses Dirty Trick (and has the feat chain) and it has proven invaluable against bigger foes. It's not the solution to every fight -- when it's lots of little guys, just hit them -- but our fighter has turned the tide multiple times when the party was on the ropes. It's really beginning to get on the DM's nerves, since most of our battles end up looking like the Three Stooges are in town, but it's undeniably effective.

Not to mention that the dual-wielding rogue who flanks with the fighter just loves it when he blinds them... Sneak Attack goodness.

I am going to assume you are about EPL 7, maybe 6. Your DM needs to learn to diversify what you fight. Blind does nothing against a foe with blind sight or blind fight feat, entangle is pointless vs non humanoids (no pants to pull down) deafened is only good vs casters, shaken does not affect fearless creatures, nor does sickened affect constructs or undead. The only one consistently useful is Dazzled

While I can see it being useful, Dirty trick is simply not worth the 3 feats to get it to work consistently where as others can be with just 2 (the third feat being icing)

 

[71gamer]

I will agree with the guy above who states a maneuver will ruin a GM's plans. I'll add to this and say that a character built like this pretty much ruined a campaign. The DM's inexperience (mine) vs. a player that woudl simply grapple anything, use Ki points to jump on top of anything, and shrug off a good amount of magic attacks (as well as deflecting the first arrow shot at him) made him incredibly hard to counter.

This became problematic, however, because the monk did so little damage...he was just annoying to the DM (magic users hogtied, etc), and his manuevers were his spotlight time, at the expense of everyone else's. He would run up to the BBG in question and instantly trip trip trip, or just try to grapple. This made any monsters nearly immobile, and made terrain boring for everyone. The problem is, he couldn't kill anything, he had crap damage, he just annoyed the out of everyone else.

The group eventually got sick of the guy and fell apart, now we play a new campaign without him, and spend a lot of our time bitching about it and talking about how fun it is to play without a monk in the party.

This is just my experience, but if you want a maneuver-bot, make sure you bring some damage to the table and realize that your DM is going to hate you And if they are more experienced than me, they will probably just try to kill you straight out.