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For Nail - The Psion
- Thread starter Caeleddin
- Start date
Bront
The man with the probe
I had a thread asking about balance that's in the rules forum here somewhere (Was active a few weeks ago, something about Psionics and Integration), several pages, and didn't solve much.
I haven't had a chance to try them myself so I can't tell you. Some powers look a little rough, but it all depends on how you run psionics in your campaign.
I haven't had a chance to try them myself so I can't tell you. Some powers look a little rough, but it all depends on how you run psionics in your campaign.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
I'm not Nail, but I'll answer for him anyway.
There are several factors that are potentially broken about psionics.
First: all psionic characters have the ability to blow through all their abilities very quickly if they need to by using only high level powers and/or augmented low level powers. This means that they are better able to pull out all the stops for a big combat or a "only encounter today" scenario. They're not quite as good at pacing themselves and conserving resources as traditional casters, but by mid-high levels, that ceases to be a limiting factor.
Second: Wilders punch significantly above their weight whenever they use their primary ability for a power that augments very well. For instance, a wild surge can let a wilder throw out an astral construct significantly more powerful than anything a mage or even a druid could summon at that level. (And since it's the whole point of the wilder class, you can't really take it away or limit the wild surge easily).
Third: Psions are a bit like sorcerers in that they have a limited selection of powers known that they can cast spontaneously. However, since their powers augment, they effectively have many more useful powers at their fingertips than sorcerers have top tier spells. Furthermore, a lot of psionic powers include options that magic spells don't--for instance a psion with energy ball effectively has fireball, iceball, lightning ball, acid ball, and sonic ball at his fingertips. Sorcerers and wizards have a LOT of trouble getting that kind of versatility.
That's most of it. There are isses with a few specific powers too (Empathic Feedback, Schism, Hostile Empathic Transfer, Energy Stun, and Energy Missile are the most noticable) but those aren't systemic. In a campaign where the PCs are frequently run "ragged" it may be less of an issue than in a more traditional campaign, but I wouldn't really count on it.
There are several factors that are potentially broken about psionics.
First: all psionic characters have the ability to blow through all their abilities very quickly if they need to by using only high level powers and/or augmented low level powers. This means that they are better able to pull out all the stops for a big combat or a "only encounter today" scenario. They're not quite as good at pacing themselves and conserving resources as traditional casters, but by mid-high levels, that ceases to be a limiting factor.
Second: Wilders punch significantly above their weight whenever they use their primary ability for a power that augments very well. For instance, a wild surge can let a wilder throw out an astral construct significantly more powerful than anything a mage or even a druid could summon at that level. (And since it's the whole point of the wilder class, you can't really take it away or limit the wild surge easily).
Third: Psions are a bit like sorcerers in that they have a limited selection of powers known that they can cast spontaneously. However, since their powers augment, they effectively have many more useful powers at their fingertips than sorcerers have top tier spells. Furthermore, a lot of psionic powers include options that magic spells don't--for instance a psion with energy ball effectively has fireball, iceball, lightning ball, acid ball, and sonic ball at his fingertips. Sorcerers and wizards have a LOT of trouble getting that kind of versatility.
That's most of it. There are isses with a few specific powers too (Empathic Feedback, Schism, Hostile Empathic Transfer, Energy Stun, and Energy Missile are the most noticable) but those aren't systemic. In a campaign where the PCs are frequently run "ragged" it may be less of an issue than in a more traditional campaign, but I wouldn't really count on it.
Basilisk - A Psion's expenditure is proportionally higher than a Wizard. The Wizard's spells scale automatically as they go up in level. The Psion's do not. To actually look at it, you would have to say that a 8d6 Fireball is going to take up a 4th level slot and a 10d6 Fireball is going to take a 5th level slot.
A single level of Archmage would solve all of the Wizard's versatility problems and it does not even interrupt his spell progression.
I am not too sure about Wilders. I sort of skimmed over them. I'll take a deeper look at it this weekend.
You blow all your PPs in the first combat of the day IMCs, you are toast in very short order. Trust me. I have run a level 16 Sorceror out of spells before. My players learn fairly quickly to conserve their firepower.
A single level of Archmage would solve all of the Wizard's versatility problems and it does not even interrupt his spell progression.
I am not too sure about Wilders. I sort of skimmed over them. I'll take a deeper look at it this weekend.
You blow all your PPs in the first combat of the day IMCs, you are toast in very short order. Trust me. I have run a level 16 Sorceror out of spells before. My players learn fairly quickly to conserve their firepower.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Caeleddin said:
That's the tradeoff and it works in theory--that's why I said that a real run them ragged approach would see fewer balance issues, and psionic characters aren't as good as non-psions at pacing themselves throughout multiple encounters.
However, brokenness typically shows up in peak output periods rather than the long haul and psionic characters all do peak output very well--so well, in fact, that there is reason to think that it could be broken. Other than the various schism/quickened/swift power/normal power abilities, there is simply the basic fact that you can't run a psion out of his high power abilities. They can keep tossing out max augmentations until they run out of pps entirely. Unlike a sorcerer or wizard, a psion will never be down to magic missiles and a ray of frost. That's not necessarily broken, but it is a significant change from normal D&D where magical powers can be gradually worn down and a character can only do his most powerful abilities a few times per day.
Not exactly true. Mastery of elements does give a sorcerer or wizard more versatility but Archmage levels are only for the late game, come at a noticable cost (the high level spell slot, prerequisite feats, and the opportunity cost of taking archmage rather than fatespinner, divine oracle, initiate of the sevenfold veil, etc. classes). And even then, it doesn't give bonus damage for fire, bonus DC for electricity and switch saves from reflex to fort (evade this!) for cold.
Sure. One other thing that I just remembered: Hustle/Psionic Lion's Charge. Those add such significant capabilities that, just by their presence, I would expect them to change nearly every melee combat build in order to aquire them somehow or other. There's no other way to move and make a full attack that's nearly so easy. I'm not certain it's broken, but that aspect is definitely game-changing.
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Jack Simth
First Post
Let's see... assuming a psion with no bonus PP's and no manifester-level increasing stuff, a Psion making maxed manifestations will make a limited number of them, dependant on level:
2 at level 1
3 at level 2
3 at level 3
4 at 4th
5 at 5th
5 at 6th
6 at 7th
7 at 8th
8 at 9th
8 at 10th
9 at 11th
10 at 12th
11 at 13th
12 at 14th
13 at 15th
13 at 16th
14 at 17th
15 at 18th
16 at 19th
and 17 at 20th.
Now, that looks like a lot (for comparison, a Sor 10 gets 3 level 5 spells by default), but a sorceror or wizard also gets lower-level spells included at relatively little expense - sure, that sorceror has 3 castings of his level 5 spell, while the psion can manifest 5th level powers 8 times - but the Sorceror can still cast his five level 4 spells, his 6 level 3 spells, and so on. Moreover, at 10th, that sorceror can cast six 10d6 fireballs and 3 10d6 cone of colds.... and STILL have room for his buffing spells (which are mostly 1st and second level). So the Sorceror gets 90d6 damage in 10d6 increments, while the Psion is only getting 80d6 damage in 10d6 increments, with virtually no PP's left over for buffs. Is a psion overpowered in an endurance campaign? No, not at all.
If you include metamagic and metapsionics, the psion with Psionic Meditation can burn and regain his focus (full-round equivalent, requires a roll vs. concentration) and spend an extra 2 pp's to make those 10d6's into 12d6's (8(for power directly) +2(for Empower) gives 8d6+4d6) eight times, for 104d6, all told. The Sorceror with Empower can turn those 3 Cone of Cold's into Empowered Fireballs for 15d6 each; 6 10d6 regular fireballs + 3 15d6 fireballs for 105d6 damage, all told. Meanwhile, the Psion has burned through all his power points while the Sorceror still has all his 4th level slots, 2nd level slots, 1st level slots, and 0th level slots open.... and he can spend his 4th level slots on more 10d6 fireballs, if he has a mind to do so, as well as spending those 2nd level slots on Scorching Ray (2 rays per casting, 4d6 each ray, 6 2nd level base slots) and those 1st level slots on Magic Missle (5 * 1d4+1 per casting, 6 1st level base slots). Sorceror beats Psion at endurance in raw damage dealing, at 10th, at least. Not sure about other levels, but I suspect it works out very similarly.
To be fair, a Psion might have Mind Thrust, and change all those d6's to d10's - in which case, he is potentially out-blasting the Sorceror in raw damage for just the sorceror's 5th and 3rd slots - of course, he adds that pesky mind-affecting tag, making many opponents immune.
Sure, the Psion has more flexibility than the Sorceror ... but less raw power.
2 at level 1
3 at level 2
3 at level 3
4 at 4th
5 at 5th
5 at 6th
6 at 7th
7 at 8th
8 at 9th
8 at 10th
9 at 11th
10 at 12th
11 at 13th
12 at 14th
13 at 15th
13 at 16th
14 at 17th
15 at 18th
16 at 19th
and 17 at 20th.
Now, that looks like a lot (for comparison, a Sor 10 gets 3 level 5 spells by default), but a sorceror or wizard also gets lower-level spells included at relatively little expense - sure, that sorceror has 3 castings of his level 5 spell, while the psion can manifest 5th level powers 8 times - but the Sorceror can still cast his five level 4 spells, his 6 level 3 spells, and so on. Moreover, at 10th, that sorceror can cast six 10d6 fireballs and 3 10d6 cone of colds.... and STILL have room for his buffing spells (which are mostly 1st and second level). So the Sorceror gets 90d6 damage in 10d6 increments, while the Psion is only getting 80d6 damage in 10d6 increments, with virtually no PP's left over for buffs. Is a psion overpowered in an endurance campaign? No, not at all.
If you include metamagic and metapsionics, the psion with Psionic Meditation can burn and regain his focus (full-round equivalent, requires a roll vs. concentration) and spend an extra 2 pp's to make those 10d6's into 12d6's (8(for power directly) +2(for Empower) gives 8d6+4d6) eight times, for 104d6, all told. The Sorceror with Empower can turn those 3 Cone of Cold's into Empowered Fireballs for 15d6 each; 6 10d6 regular fireballs + 3 15d6 fireballs for 105d6 damage, all told. Meanwhile, the Psion has burned through all his power points while the Sorceror still has all his 4th level slots, 2nd level slots, 1st level slots, and 0th level slots open.... and he can spend his 4th level slots on more 10d6 fireballs, if he has a mind to do so, as well as spending those 2nd level slots on Scorching Ray (2 rays per casting, 4d6 each ray, 6 2nd level base slots) and those 1st level slots on Magic Missle (5 * 1d4+1 per casting, 6 1st level base slots). Sorceror beats Psion at endurance in raw damage dealing, at 10th, at least. Not sure about other levels, but I suspect it works out very similarly.
To be fair, a Psion might have Mind Thrust, and change all those d6's to d10's - in which case, he is potentially out-blasting the Sorceror in raw damage for just the sorceror's 5th and 3rd slots - of course, he adds that pesky mind-affecting tag, making many opponents immune.
Sure, the Psion has more flexibility than the Sorceror ... but less raw power.
Testament
First Post
Psions DO NOT have more flexibility than a Sorc, they're the grand daddies of mono-tasking. A Kineticist can blow stuff up with horrendous efficiency. And that's about it really. An Egoist can buff like crazy. On themselves only.
Astral Construct, while powerful, is a Shaper only power, so unless someone's spending the Expanded Knowledge feat to pick it up, its their schtick (and their main power). Wilders are nasty as all Hades, but have 11 powers at 20th level, unless they're spending feats on Expanded Knowledge. And they also have that painful problem of risking burning more of that sweet sweet mojo EVERY TIME they Surge, and spending the next round dazed. I regularly play with a Wilder, and I have to say, that yes he is terrifying in a fight (surged Energy Missiles are a terror to behold, even when fixed to DC scale at a rate of 1 for 2 pps), but on average, his tank is dry after 3 encounters, since he WILL flub a surge, and lose his metacap's worth.
The only real flaw of psionics, as I see it, is that it is SO closely linked with the design brief of 3-4 encounters per day.
And now...
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253&page=1&pp=30
Astral Construct, while powerful, is a Shaper only power, so unless someone's spending the Expanded Knowledge feat to pick it up, its their schtick (and their main power). Wilders are nasty as all Hades, but have 11 powers at 20th level, unless they're spending feats on Expanded Knowledge. And they also have that painful problem of risking burning more of that sweet sweet mojo EVERY TIME they Surge, and spending the next round dazed. I regularly play with a Wilder, and I have to say, that yes he is terrifying in a fight (surged Energy Missiles are a terror to behold, even when fixed to DC scale at a rate of 1 for 2 pps), but on average, his tank is dry after 3 encounters, since he WILL flub a surge, and lose his metacap's worth.
The only real flaw of psionics, as I see it, is that it is SO closely linked with the design brief of 3-4 encounters per day.
And now...
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=331253&page=1&pp=30
EyeontheMountain
First Post
Well, after just geting done playing a 15th level psion in my home campaign (Ended in a TPK, but that is another story) I ahve noticed that psions are not really front tier casters i na group. Mainly becasue they are too selfish. A good wizard can haste his buddies, mass whateverthem and still ahve lots of boom left. And a whole hasted party is a lot nicer than a single fireball in almost every situation.
But the psion it is all ME ME ME! Sue he can do good stuff and is an excellent mbackup man, but you still need a primary caster out there.
I agree wittheh posts above that a psion can be hell on wheels in a combat when he has points to burn. Using a Schism, a quickened power and a main power all in once round is a whole lot of d6s worth of energy ball, let me tell you. But it doesnt last long. Not long at all.
That said, the current psion is the best ever, and still a lot of fun to play. Well balanced.
But the psion it is all ME ME ME! Sue he can do good stuff and is an excellent mbackup man, but you still need a primary caster out there.
I agree wittheh posts above that a psion can be hell on wheels in a combat when he has points to burn. Using a Schism, a quickened power and a main power all in once round is a whole lot of d6s worth of energy ball, let me tell you. But it doesnt last long. Not long at all.
That said, the current psion is the best ever, and still a lot of fun to play. Well balanced.
two
First Post
Not Well Balanced
I don't buy any of this talk.
Psions are simply not well balanced for many campaigns. Note, I said "campaigns!"
There are plenty of campaigns where 4 encounters in a day (before resting) is extremely rare. As in, it happens maybe once a year, when the party goes into a crypt or something like that.
I've played in multiple campaigns (long lasting, levels 1-15 or so) where we never, not once, had 4 or 5 encounters in a single day.
More to the point, 99% of campaigns do NOT feature 4 encounters a day every time the party gets into a fight.
It's almost impossible to get 4 encounters in a day every day unless you are going through the "mega huge dunjeon-o-doom-o-rama".
And more to the point, most GM's don't have a lot of interest in running 4 seperate encounters in a day. For the simple reason that this limits greatly the type and kind of encounters/situations the pary finds themselves in.
Meaning, that unless the GM wants to make his/her campaign of the type that features 3 (minimally) or 4 (will do it) encounters about 75% of the time, in order to insure the Psion has to make sure not to use up too many power points too quickly -- Psions will get off easy.
For every other campaign type, and this is the majority, Psions are unbalanced because of their ability to do great big damage in a short amount of time by using bunches of power points.
It's kinda similar to what would happen if Sorcerers, for example, were given the ability to burn 2 lower level spells to fuel a higher level spell, i.e. 2 4th level spells power a 5th level spell. 2 5th level spells power a 6th level spell. This hypothetical sorcerer could burn through masses of spells very quickly and pump out lots of damge. If there are 2 encounters a day, he's got enough spells to do this and rules the battlefield. With 3-4 encounters, it's rough. But it doesn't matter. Because in most campaigns, most "days" involve 2 or 1 encounters.
Personally, I think any class (such as Psion) that requires a very specific campaign style (multiple encounters per day) to be kept in line, is asking a bit much of the GM.
And of the players, as well. I know I would be annoyed as all get-out if everytime we travelled to point X we ran across 4 random monsters illogically strung together to keep the Psion limited instead of 1 or 2 logical, "easy to beleive" challanges along the way.
I don't buy any of this talk.
Psions are simply not well balanced for many campaigns. Note, I said "campaigns!"
There are plenty of campaigns where 4 encounters in a day (before resting) is extremely rare. As in, it happens maybe once a year, when the party goes into a crypt or something like that.
I've played in multiple campaigns (long lasting, levels 1-15 or so) where we never, not once, had 4 or 5 encounters in a single day.
More to the point, 99% of campaigns do NOT feature 4 encounters a day every time the party gets into a fight.
It's almost impossible to get 4 encounters in a day every day unless you are going through the "mega huge dunjeon-o-doom-o-rama".
And more to the point, most GM's don't have a lot of interest in running 4 seperate encounters in a day. For the simple reason that this limits greatly the type and kind of encounters/situations the pary finds themselves in.
Meaning, that unless the GM wants to make his/her campaign of the type that features 3 (minimally) or 4 (will do it) encounters about 75% of the time, in order to insure the Psion has to make sure not to use up too many power points too quickly -- Psions will get off easy.
For every other campaign type, and this is the majority, Psions are unbalanced because of their ability to do great big damage in a short amount of time by using bunches of power points.
It's kinda similar to what would happen if Sorcerers, for example, were given the ability to burn 2 lower level spells to fuel a higher level spell, i.e. 2 4th level spells power a 5th level spell. 2 5th level spells power a 6th level spell. This hypothetical sorcerer could burn through masses of spells very quickly and pump out lots of damge. If there are 2 encounters a day, he's got enough spells to do this and rules the battlefield. With 3-4 encounters, it's rough. But it doesn't matter. Because in most campaigns, most "days" involve 2 or 1 encounters.
Personally, I think any class (such as Psion) that requires a very specific campaign style (multiple encounters per day) to be kept in line, is asking a bit much of the GM.
And of the players, as well. I know I would be annoyed as all get-out if everytime we travelled to point X we ran across 4 random monsters illogically strung together to keep the Psion limited instead of 1 or 2 logical, "easy to beleive" challanges along the way.
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