For Nail - The Psion

[Thanee]

It seems that the psions are good at one and pretty much one (well maybe three) things, and other than that they can't really do much. They also aren't the greatest at aiding groups (as someone else pointed out I think).

Psions get a fair share of utility, too. Where they really lose out is helping the party, since most powers are rather self-centered.

But on the other side of the things, many of the arguments about 3.0 haste and such was that it allowed a character to unload spells MUCH faster than normal, and it seems that that's what the psion is being able to do...in a less powerful way mayhaps.

That's a good comparison, IMHO.

It has been shown in 3.0, that spellcasters shall not unload their already pretty devastating potential any faster. Especially at higher levels, they already are at the top of the border.

Psionics now reintroduce this "problem" into 3.5, that they are able to squeeze more power into a shorter time frame. They break the border, which the 3.5 rules tried to set with spellcasters, in a similar way as Haste did in 3.0. Thus they break the core balance between spellcasters and non-spellcasters (and even with those, the spellcasters are already ahead at higher levels, tho not nearly as bad as in 3.0).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Caeleddin]

Thanee - Let's just run with the base here.

At 343 PP, with augmentation maxxed for max damage that is about 343d6 damage.

At level 20, you can get 343d6 in 24 spell slots or the equivalent of (17x6+5x6+9x6+7x6) 228 PP. You have not yet touched 6th, 7th 8th, 2nd, 1st and 0 level spell slots yet.


As an example, let us assume that Disintegrate is the best damage spell out there (it is, actually, for 2:1 damage to CL ratio). The Psion can cast 31 of it at a set rate of 24d6 per casting for a total of 744d6 damage. A Sorceror can do (assuming he sacrifices all his higher level slots for it) 24 of them at 40d6 each for a total of 960d6. Again, his lower level spell slots are untouched. A Wizard can come up with 640d6, but he still has all of his lower level slots to back it up.


As I said, if you start taking free augmentation into account, the Psion and the arcane casters aren't even in the same ballpark.

 

[Thanee]

Caeleddin, these damage comparisons are completely meaningless (see above for explanation).

Or do you really think, that Disintegrate is more powerful than Meteor Swarm!?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Caeleddin]

For pure paper generic damage output. Meteor Swarm is better if you hit the target with every one of them, and the chap is not resistant to fire.

I have already addressed the reason why I think speed output is irrelevant to the discussion. Greater output rate is actually more beneficial to the NPC than the PC. The PC has to survive a bunch of encounters (or potentially so or so they think). The NPC can boom the crap out of the PC and either run away or die a glorious death a la Worf. The PCs may have a bunch of stuff hobbling them from doing just that (time constraints, etc.). The fact that PCs tend to be outnumbered by the BBEG's minions add to the problem.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Actually speed of power output for the Psion is not only releveant but at the very core of the problem that the Psion has with being a balanced core class. The Wilder even more so. No offense Caeleddin but arguing that your "play-style" keeps Psions in check is not what I call a compelling argument to ignore the power output that Psions are very much capable of.

It's alot like having two guys with guns; one a sorcerer, the other a psion. The sorcerer has a little more ammo in their cartridge than the psion but the psion has a switch for auto-fire on their gun and can unload bullets at much greater rate. Holding a Psion hostage with the constant threat of combat and enemies while saying: "Don't fire automatic, you'll waste all your ammo and then you'll get it!" isn't what I'd call an enjoyable environemnt for the Psion to be gaming in and not what I'd call a real solution for the poor design philosophy that the Psion suffers from.

 

[Thanee]

@Caeleddin:

What your Disintegrate example shows is, that the 20th-level sorcerer can put out a lot more effect, if both are restricted to 6th level spells/powers or lower. Big deal there.

Now for a proper comparison let's assume there is a 9th level version of Disintegrate... Mass Disintegrate with 1 target per level (not an unreasonable spell for the level, most mass versions add less than 3 spell levels even).

Then compare again what both can do in a day.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Also, keeping the PP and slots at the base level is not reasonable. Characters do not only have the base at 20th level.

And adding 100 PP, of course, adds a lot more than adding one 9th level, one 8th level and one 7th level slot, plus a bunch of lower level ones, which, I guess, is why you would rather like to not look at it this way.

Advantage for the psion? Certainly, but that's a fairly realistic advantage there.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Shadowdweller]

A very tricky subject, this balance discussion. Much like the discussion between the relative powers Clerics versus Wizards, I think one really has to compare the spell/power list. Which is difficult and often subjective.

Some general opinions I have between the two:

* Arcane casters generally have a much greater spell list, and HUGELY greater out-of-combat potential. From dealing with random non-monster challenges (such as a yawning chasm) to shaping the environment about them, to creating economically unbalancing sources of iron. As a corollary, many psionic powers...way TOO many if you ask me...only see use in combat. They've lots of nice combat buffs, and blasting powers. But little else.

* Partly as a result of a greater spell list, arcane spells are much better at dealing with a variety of save weaknesses. That is, there are much more nasty arcane spells spread out between the three types...fortitude, reflex, will.

* Arcane casters have better party-buffs. As noted by everyone else, from Haste to Polymorph.

* Arcane casters have better battlefield control spells. Web, Acid Fog, Evard's Black Tentacles and the like.

* Most of the discussion regarding Psion power actually centers on a very FEW number of specific powers. The Psion gets the benefit of casting these spontaneously, expansively, and with very high save DCs. Examples: Energy Missile, Psionic Domination, Dispel Psionics.

* Aside from these few powers, and DESPITE augmentation capabilities, I actually find that the breadth and versatility of INDIVIDUAL spells tends to be much greater than that of psionic powers. Example: Plane Shift as a power is a utlity/travel ability. As a spell (more effective for clerics, obviously) it's a utility/travel ability AND a will save death spell unless random enemy is equipped to deal with the Elemental Plane of Schmooze. Example: Illusion spells vs False Sensory Perception.

Please note, I don't see these as necessarily meaning that the arcane caster is more powerful (or vise versa). The capability to blast for more damage per round is a significant advantage at times. But these DO serve to mitigate things.

 

[Thanee]

Please note, I don't see these as necessarily meaning that the arcane caster is more powerful (or vise versa). The capability to blast for more damage per round is a significant advantage at times. But these DO serve to mitigate things.

Yeah, I totally agree there. The weaker overall power list, the discipline lists and weaker "party buffs" are definitely disadvantages, the biggest ones the psion's get even IMHO. Also psionic focus shall not be left out.

But they do not have a complete lack of out-of-combat utility, there are quite a few good utility spells in their list, too.

And, of course, there are also quite a few advantages (over the sorcerer), which have not been figured in either (near grapple immunity, silence immunity, bonus feats, better skills, armor use, faster power level progression, higher number of high level powers (much higher, if including augmentable ones), spontaneous Quicken, etc).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Last but not least, because of augmentation, Globes of Invulnerability will hose the Psion fair effectively. You may augment it to the nines, but at the end of the day, Energy Ball is still a level 4 power.

This is something I just thought about... those globes are often mentioned as cutting off a lot of the power the psion has as a counter-argument to the huge amount of high level powers they get, thanks to augmentable lower level ones.

Let me show you, how the psion's flexibility actually turns this into an advantage:

Let's assume the level where the big globe first appears: 11th (a bit unfair, admittedly* ).

A psion now has one 6th level powers, four 5th level powers and 133 PP (20 Int).
To put those PP into perspective, we are talking about twelve 6th level manifestations here.

The sorcerer has zero 6th level spells, two 5th level spells and five 5th level slots (20 Cha).

So, who's affected more by the globe, hmm?

* This is probably the most psion-beneficial level, of course, but look at it at any other level, and you will see, that the psion still has the full alotment of PP (not a single PP goes to waste, while the 1st thru 4th level slots are all unable to affect anything inside the globe) and a much bigger choice of known powers, even at 20th level, where the globe's effect is least drastic.

To be honest, I don't think the globe really affects the whole thing either way, since it's much too rare a sight, and then you still can use the lower level spells and powers to do stuff outside the globe (buffing for example).

This is just meant to put an end to the argument, that the globe makes psions look bad.

Bye
Thanee