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For the first time... apprehension

adembroski

First Post
mhacdebhandia said:
Thank the various gods.

I am by no means trying to say that Lord of the Rings is the be-all-end-all of fantasy gaming. However, I do believe it provides the best overall model for a "generic" core. It includes the skeleton of virtually every fantasy world with little EXCLUSION required.

I generally try to avoid excluding things from the core books, thus I don't like the core books hoisting too much upon me.
 

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adembroski

First Post
BBQ said:
Blah, blah, blah... there are a lot of threads about this stuff elsewhere on these forums. I disagree with most of your objections, but I suppose you have a right to your opinion. I just think you need to give it a chance before you get your back up about this.

I'm sorry if I came off as whining. What I meant to do was point out what was making me apprehensive and ask people to help me come to terms with what I'm reading a little bit, I guess. A quick crash course on what's been discussed over the past 4 months, as well as some feedback on my thoughts in hopes someone could help me to see the virtue in what I've seen.
 

adembroski

First Post
PhantomNarrator said:
Why is anyone surprised they're trying to ride the success of WoW? Hasbro doesn't care about people who have been around as long as you have, let alone the grognards who cut their teeth on OD&D like me. They want to market to 14 year olds, or people with the minds of 14 year olds. The only influences these twinks have are MMO's and anime, since most of them are functionally illiterate. When you say Lord of the Rings they might think of the Peter Jackson movies, maybe. Expect more big eyes and stupid hairdos in the art too, even worse than the "punk" look of 3.X.

But I'm just a grumpy old grognard, what do I know? This day was bound to come sooner or later. The murder of Dragon magazine and the new subscription scam mark the passing of an age. It'll be called D&D, but it sure as hell won't feel like D&D to me.

I don't think I'm as pessimistic as you... I haven't quite given up the gauntlet. Your thoughts do mirror mine a bit though.

When I mention Tolkien, I think of the books first, while I admit the movies do give me the visual elements (hey, I thought Peter Jackson did one hell of an admirable job).

For the record, I have rather liked the artwork I've seen so far. More traditional, perhaps a tad too colorful though.
 

adembroski

First Post
KingCrab said:
I agree with you on a couple of things (mostly the amount of unwanted flavor about to be forced upon us in core), disagree with you on the others. For anyone coming back to EN World in the middle of the 4e debates that occur here, I'll say there are a LOT of threads to read on basically everything you've mentioned.

I'm aware I'm trudging up some old debates... was just hoping someone who's been in those discussion could help ease my mind. One person has already pointed out a mistake I made, and that helps.

The unwanted flavor is absolutely the biggest reason I'm worried. They did a little bit of it in 3rd edition, but it was all very modular. I could replace everything. Tieflings as base races really do bother me.

pawsplay said:
Rest assured, you are not alone. There are a lot of great threads and some very interesting ideas have been hashed out here in the past weeks. There are some premature 4e converts already, and some people have already adopted a bunker mentality, but I think the vast majority of the forum posters here are feeling some mixture of excitement, apprehension, ambivlance, and curiosity. The general sense seems to be that most people are going to buy in eventually, but if you don't want to, nobody here is going to make you. I am happy you stopped in and I hope you will stay for the conversation.

My condolences on the lack of a gaming group.

It's more been a matter of time issues. I could put my old group back tomorrow, but we'd be playing on either a bi-weekly basis or switching days every week, and we're just hoping if we hang on another month or two a new option will open up. We've been waiting three months, one of these days we'll just bite the bullet and take the crappy schedule.

Curiousity and apprehension are my primary feelings on it so far. It was excitement when I first saw it, then when I got here and started reading the info page, my heart sank. I'm currently writing a new campaign setting and from what I've read, it doesn't fit at all. I'm sure with enough work I can make it fit, but lord knows when the new system comes out and I say lets play, someone's gonna have their heart set on that tiefling warlord...
 
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Xethreau

Josh Gentry - Author, Minister in Training
eve_of_dante said:
Hee hee - I was just reading Races and Classes and remarking on how inspired by the sucess of the LOTR movie the designers seemed to be... there are wood elves and high elves, Wizards have staffs, they kept halfling and made them LOTR sized... They have the Boromir class - the Warlord, and the Aragorn class - the Ranger...
Oh wow! That's exciting! I am SO getting R&C now!

But, back to the OPoster, I think the primary reason for a "rule focus on battle" is because battle is the most complicated part of the game. In case you didn't know, there is going to be rules for 'social encounters,' which apparently promote RP.

About your finer points:
-Something like prestige class options are now built into the standard character progression, apparently. What should define a world is the people in it, not what levels they have taken. I will be happy when samurai and red wizard are no longer class names, but the names of the 'social class' that they are in their particular settings.

-Warlord can be as much of a architypical class as any other. Give it a chance. Do you perhaps remember when 'druid' was a kit of the priest, but then it was made it's own class? Same thing.

-No, there will be no 'threat' system. Any sort of 'tank' powers will not force a foe into a decision, but will probably limit the decisions it can make by giving it penalties, etc.

-I have no clue what this 'full dex modifier' thing you are talking about is...

-Trees are speculative. And so you know, in theory they would apply to both feats and
'Powers,' which is the new term for selectable class features. Remember, 3e had feat trees, though they never brought attention to it. What I mean by 'talent tree' is a group of powers that fit a particular theme. Being able to freely pick your class features as you level up is freeing, actually. Worry not, I doubt it will look anything like WoW's system.

-Ever hear your group say they needed an 'arcane blaster' or a 'healer'? Same thing, except this time WotC is being a bit more newbie friendly about it, and making sure that there are no classes that just plain suck/never get picked.

-I disagree with you on multiclassing. All the characters I want to play right now are multiclassed in D&D terms, except for one which is a *gasp* dwarven wizard. Character creating freedom, which you were just complaining about (possibly) loosing, is enhanced with multiclassing. Whenever a player comes up with a unique idea for a character, any steps should be taken to see the idea come to fruition, because that character is special. Always.

-I kind of have to agree with you on dragonborn, but its really just going to be the same thing as saying "no Gnomes" if you do. The DM is boss anyway, and if it really doesn't fit the setting (like Middle Earth, for example) then the players should respect that. I happen to have high hopes for dragonborn, however. (You know that tieflings are a core race now, right?)

-The mythology of spell components never fit my world, but I do like the idea of wands being something other than a spell-spamming machine. One will hopefully be able to house rule changes to magic as easy as it is to house rule that sorcerers get Eschew Materials as a bonus feat at first level.

-I just can't agree with you on the speeding up battle thing, sorry. I was a little skeptical about that too, at first, but there are some improvements that have been made that are just brilliant. Check out the new stat card for the spined devil to see a comparison between the 3e monster and the 4e monster. Perhaps this will give you an idea of the differences being made.

-We have no word about skills that are available. One minor thing is that when they were talking about skills, someone said that they didn't want someone to say 'Oh, I never invested in that skill, oh well." It would be reasonable to think, then, that either use rope got folded into another skill, or something along those lines.
 
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pawsplay

Hero
Mutliclassing: No one knows how this works, but it is alleged to be awesome
Lots of wow factor: lots of stuff from the Book of Nine Swords, cool maneuvers, tieflings, etc. This is either awesome or sucks, or makes you feel a little strange, possibly kind of old.

4e is anime/is not, 4e is a MMORPG/is not, 4e is a dungeon crawl is/not, 4e will play fast/4e will be complicated

Warlocks: Not your father's Oldsmobile. Took the binder's stuff. Voted sorcerer off the island.

Wizards: This changes every week. Presumably, the week before this thing goes to the printers, they'll spin a wheel and decide how implements will work.

Eladrin: They were just being sneaky. These are just high/grey/star elves. High/wood/wild/other elves will still be elves.

Dragonborn: Dragonborn are not dragonborn. They may or may not be lizardfolk plus uberkobolds, but it's obvious they shop at the Races of the Dragon Superstore. Either awesome or they suck.

Halflings: Not a polite topic of conversation.

Magic items: No one knows. The fear is thickening. Paranoid fantasies abound. It is rumored they sacrificed goats to the Magic Item Compendium, but no one knows what the oracles foretold to them.
 
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Orius

Legend
eve_of_dante said:
Hee hee - I was just reading Races and Classes and remarking on how inspired by the sucess of the LOTR movie the designers seemed to be... there are wood elves and high elves, Wizards have staffs, they kept halfling and made them LOTR sized... They have the Boromir class - the Warlord, and the Aragorn class - the Ranger...

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing myself. My first reaction to eladrin was, "WTF?!", but as I read about them, they're sounding more like the Noldor, or the Eldar in general.

The loss of Vancian magic is really going to mess up a good deal of traditional D&D assumptions on magic, but when I read about the staff as one of the wizard's implements, three things come to mind:

1: Gandalf destroying the bridge of Khazad-dum with his staff
2: Gandalf healing Theoden with his staff
3: Gandalf breaking Saruman's staff.

The dwarf concept art: http://www.enworld.org/images/4e/4edwarves.jpg Am I the only one who thinks they're kind of ripping off the look the movies gave to the dwarves?

I'm getting kind of a vibe that they're emphasising some of the Tolkienesque elements because of the movies' popularity, just as Gary used the book's popularity back in the '70s to sell the game in the first place.
 

Orius

Legend
adembroski said:
For the record, I have rather liked the artwork I've seen so far. More traditional, perhaps a tad too colorful though.

I agree there. What I've seen of the art so far dispenses of the "dungeonpunk" look: less tattoos and massive piercings, no crazy armor spikes, more normal looking shields, and armor that doesn't look pieced together from a dozen different suits. The art seems to have elemtns of the LotR movies with some of the more restrained elements of 3e style, and some unique elements as well.

Let's hope this'll be the last time I ever have to use the term, "dungeonpunk". :lol:
 

eve_of_dante

First Post
Yeah, I think they're slightly inspired... :)
I imagine: 'let's take all the elements of those popular films and mix them with all the elements of that popular MMO... $$$'

But I think it works pretty well as the elements of both seem each to add something to the other in a D&D game...
 

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