For the first time ever, I've banned a player class from my table

[reveal]

The infusion "Metamagic Item" does NOT allow you to bypass the extra charge cost for applying metamagic to a wand. It says nothing about that in the description. The point of "Metamagic Item" is much like the point of most infusions -- to aid the artificer's comrades. It allows others to use the wand with the artificer's metamagic feat imbued within it for a short time.

So, if all the rays successfully hit, you're looking at 36d6 points of damage and 5 charges expended. If you think this is still overpowered, I would ban Twin Spell rather than the Artificer, or at least not allow it to stack with other metamagic feats, etc.

That may be "the point" of the infusion, but it's very poorly worded. Why wouldn't it not cost extra? That's also one of the problems I have with this. The 7th level ability of an Artificer allows you to add a known metamagic feat to a wand at the cost of extra charges. The "Metamagic Item" infusion allows a person to temporarily allow a metamagic feat to be applied to a wand. It says nothing about extra charges.

With that said, where in the book does it say that casting a wand with a metamagic spell costs more than 1 charge? Does it? I honestly don't know.

 

[Obscure]

That may be "the point" of the infusion, but it's very poorly worded. Why wouldn't it not cost extra? That's also one of the problems I have with this. The 7th level ability of an Artificer allows you to add a known metamagic feat to a wand at the cost of extra charges. The "Metamagic Item" infusion allows a person to temporarily allow a metamagic feat to be applied to a wand. It says nothing about extra charges.

With that said, where in the book does it say that casting a wand with a metamagic spell costs more than 1 charge? Does it? I honestly don't know.

Page 32, under the heading "Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su)." It's not true that there is no extra cost for adding metamagic to wands.

The infusion description may be a bit vague, but given the obviously broken results of interpreting it the way your player did, I think the intention is pretty clear.

 

[reveal]

Page 32, under the heading "Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su)." It's not true that there is no extra cost for adding metamagic to wands.

I know. As I said in my post, "The 7th level ability of an Artificer allows you to add a known metamagic feat to a wand at the cost of extra charges."

The infusion description may be a bit vague, but given the obviously broken results of interpreting it the way your player did, I think the intention is pretty clear.

And I'm not sure that the intent is clear. I think I'll post this on the Eberron board and, hopefully, Keith Baker, who seems to frequent it, will help.

Edit: A quick search on the Eberron board and it seems that a lot of people see Metamagic Item as only using one charge.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=287275

Edit 2: Plus, Metamagic Item is a 3rd level infusion, which Artificers can "cast" at 5th level. If the ability and this infusion were supposed to be used in tandem, why is Metamagic Spell Trigger a 7th level ability?

 

[dnabre]

12 Empowered Scorching Rays from Wands? Let's break this down.

Wands of Empowered Scorching Ray (3 rays => CL 11) = 11*2+2*750=33,000gp each
Twin Spells (+4 Spell Slot Adjustment) using Class Feature using +4 charges from each wand
Dual Wand Wielder so using double charges from latter (there's some ambigiuity in whether it's one extra charge or double charges on the second wand)

So 12 Scorching rays for burning either 11 total charges or 15 total charges, using a feat (with preqs), a class ability, and 66,000gp worth of magic items (75% of her total wealth). And she needs to make 12 touch attack rolls, and the target gets their SR 12 times, and their fire resistance 12 times.

Doesn't sound overpowered for the resources being burned/used. What sort of effect could a wizard get from a scroll costing 7260 gp (or 9900gp)?

Edit: Others covered (more familiar with Eberron rules) covered it better than I apparently.

 

[Obscure]

Sorry, I slightly misread your last post.

The Metamagic Item infusion doesn't need to be used in tandem with the Metamagic Spell Trigger ability. At 5th and 6th level, it allows the artificer to combine metamagic with wands, at 7th level and above he can do so without the infusion and still use the infusion to give metamagicked wands to his friends. I just think (and I don't think this is unreasonable)that the infusion should use the same mechanic as the class ability.

No offense meant to anyone, but the WotC boards are ruled by munchkins who are all looking for ways to do 200d6 points of damage per round. At the end of the day, even if Keth Baker himself tells you that Artificers can do 100d12 points of damage with a standard action, expending no resources at all, you should apply the rules the way you see fit, creating a fair and fun game.

I just think it would be a shame to throw out an interesting new class because of vague wording in one infusion description....

 

[Staffan]

2 - Twin Spell makes the spell take effect on the target twice, simultaneously. So the DM can rule as one of two things: a) each ray that hits takes effect twice (for another 4d6 + 50% fire damage); or b) Twin Spell gives you 3 additional rays (each requiring its own ranged touch attack. I'd rule as (a).

Thinking about it for a second, I'm not sure Twin Spell even applies to scorching ray. From the feat description in Complete Arcane: "Casting a twinned spell causes the spell to take effect twice in the same area or on the same target simultaneously."

Scorching ray has neither an area nor a target entry, so I'm not sure they work together.

 

[Tzarevitch]

A) It was in an abandoned fort and there were giants throwing rocks at her. But after 6 rounds of missing her, I was rolling poorly, they decided to take it to the ground.

B) A 13th level sorcerer cannot use the combination you proposed because that would make it an 11th level spell. They could either Quicken it (6th) 4 times a day, Empower it (4th) 6 times a day or Maximize it (5th) 6 times a day. A 13th level Artificer, on the other hand, could take an Empowered wand, cast the spell in question, and apply Quickened to it. With that combination, they could do a 24d6 damage per round for 13 rounds. All of this would cost them 1 charge of the wand every time they use it. Throw in the Dual Wand Wielder feat (which I know is not a normal Artificer ability but a feat from another book) and they could do an additional 24d6 damage per round with the other wand, costing them a total of 2 charges from it.

Metamagic rods do not increase the spell level. A sorcerer with the empower spell feat and a twin-spell metamagic rod can do the same thing 3x/day, and the rod doesn't expire. The problem is with the feat not the class. Also, I do not think that the artificer can use his ability to apply a metamagic feat to a second wand. I may not be remembering this correctly, but I think she can only apply A metamagic feat to A spell-trigger item, not feats to items plural.

And because the Artificer gets the Craft Pool with extra XP speficially to create things, as well as almost every single Craft feat by 13th level, it won't cost them as much as a normal spellcaster to create the items needed.

It doesn't cost as much xp because of the reserve. The artificer however pays exactly as much time and gold to make things as anyone else does. Also bear in mind that it take a WEEK to make a wand like your player was using. That means that every time she burns the wand out she spends up to 6,000gp and a week just to do it again or buys another one for 16,000 (or uses feats to reduce the time and cost).

Anyway, my point is read the rules carefully and don't give any more than the rules allow. I am pretty sure that the artificer cannot metamagic a second wand in a round. Other than that, a sorcerer or wizard can do nearly the same trick with a metamagic rod instead of a wand.

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

12 Empowered Scorching Rays from Wands? Let's break this down.

Wands of Empowered Scorching Ray (3 rays => CL 11) = 11*2+2*750=33,000gp each
Twin Spells (+4 Spell Slot Adjustment) using Class Feature using +4 charges from each wand
Dual Wand Wielder so using double charges from latter (there's some ambigiuity in whether it's one extra charge or double charges on the second wand)

So 12 Scorching rays for burning either 11 total charges or 15 total charges, using a feat (with preqs), a class ability, and 66,000gp worth of magic items (75% of her total wealth). And she needs to make 12 touch attack rolls, and the target gets their SR 12 times, and their fire resistance 12 times.

Doesn't sound overpowered for the resources being burned/used. What sort of effect could a wizard get from a scroll costing 7260 gp (or 9900gp)?

Edit: Others covered (more familiar with Eberron rules) covered it better than I apparently.

I think he said the wand was cast at 9th level and she was using a feat to boost it up to 11th level (I can't remember the name of the feat).

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

By the way, can someone please post the exact text of that infusion so that we all know what we are arguing about? I don't have my Eberron book here with me.

Tzarevitch

 

[reveal]

By the way, can someone please post the exact text of that infusion so that we all know what we are arguing about? I don't have my Eberron book here with me.

Tzarevitch

Metamagic Item
Target: Spell trigger magic item touched
Duration: 1 round/level

You temporarily apply a metamagic feat you know to a single spell contained within a spell trigger item. For the duration of this infusion, ayone who casts a spell from the item gains the benefit of that metamgic feat. For example, you could imbue a wand of fireballs with the Empower Spell feat or apply the Maximize Spell feat to the cone of cold spell in a staff of frost.