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D&D General For those that find Alignment useful, what does "Lawful" mean to you

If you find alignment useful, which definition of "Lawful" do you use?

  • I usually think of "Lawful" as adhering to a code (or similar concept) more than a C or N NPC would

    Votes: 35 31.5%
  • I usually think of "Lawful" as following the laws of the land more strictly than a C or N NPC would

    Votes: 17 15.3%
  • I use both definitions about equally

    Votes: 41 36.9%
  • I don't find alignment useful but I still want to vote in this poll

    Votes: 18 16.2%

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
What makes them horrible?

3e says unhelpfully:

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability."
"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility.


A Chaotic person can be trustworthy. If they say they will do it they will. It might not be what everyone else is doing, but the Chaotic person can do their own thing reliably.

A Lawful person can fight for freedom, freedom for the group. For the group to be free from police harassment, freedom from discrimination, freedom from getting shut out of opportunities. It is for the group. It isnt individual freedom but it is real freedom.

And similar.

The only difference is between self-identifying as a group versus self-identifying as an individual.

(Honor/shame is by definition group identity. Pride/guilt is individual identity.)

Agreed. Simpler, but not quite as nuanced.
Simpler is clearer. The more variables, the more confusing, and the more self-contradictions happen.

I think "morality" is a fine and a streamlined way of saying the G/N/E factor compared to your's.
There can be both lawful and chaotic societies. Are you saying chaotic societies are just individuals all for themselves?
A Chaotic group is about empowering each others individual uniquenesses.

For me, its more about looking at tradition and rules (order/law) vs context and guidelines (liberty/chaos).
Tradition means a group structure transmits from one generation to the next.

But Chaotic has nothing to do with random.

In this context, the group versus the individual is more like standardization versus innovation.
 

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From the "How has D&D changed over the decades?" thread...

Yes, but, apparently, there are a significant number of gamers out there that want to be able to justify forcing their preferences on others by pointing to how they are "just playing the game as it was written".

I got a feeling this is lawful evil...
 

Aldarc

Legend
There is a certain undertone I get in the past few pages of discussion about the alignment of fictional characters that "there would be no problems with alignment if only people understood it as well as I do." So I present a word of caution.

It reminds me so much of heated discussions that I have seen people get into in the past about Myers Briggs Personality Types, particularly when it came to identifying fictional characters. Some people in these online discussions would get uppity, claim ultimate expertise/gnosis about MBTI, and then browbeat others over their lack of "proper understanding" about the MBTI types or (just as often) these other fictional characters. They simply knew better. They had the MBTI gnosis. If other people only accepted their "proper understanding," these MBTI Gnostics would say, then those other people - the inititiates, the skeptics, and the heretics - wouldn't have any problems with MBTI, and they too would attest to its veracity. But then they would get angrier and escalate things in discussion when those people invariably rejected their MBTI Gnosis.

IMHO, however, it all says far more about how a person sees the character, in the manner of a Rorschach Test, than it does about the legitmacy of either MBTI or Alignment as meaningful ways to understand the temperament, behavior, motivations, and/or ethics of people. At the end of the day, it's still meaningless baloney.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
3e says unhelpfully:

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability."
"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility.


A Chaotic person can be trustworthy. If they say they will do it they will. It might not be what everyone else is doing, but the Chaotic person can do their own thing reliably.

A Lawful person can fight for freedom, freedom for the group. For the group to be free from police harassment, freedom from discrimination, freedom from getting shut out of opportunities. It is for the group. It isnt individual freedom but it is real freedom.

And similar.

The only difference is between self-identifying as a group versus self-identifying as an individual.

(Honor/shame is by definition group identity. Pride/guilt is individual identity.)


Simpler is clearer. The more variables, the more confusing, and the more self-contradictions happen.


A Chaotic group is about empowering each others individual uniquenesses.


Tradition means a group structure transmits from one generation to the next.

But Chaotic has nothing to do with random.

In this context, the group versus the individual is more like standardization versus innovation.
As mentioned before, I don't see how we cannot do exactly the same analysis on your own proposed metric.

A Lawful person can be solitary. Holding true to the spirit of the rules when everyone else is cheating is almost definitionally lawful, despite being both a common trope and, sadly, actually a real life event in many cases.

A Chaotic person, as you yourself note, can form a group and seek solidarity. They just do so as a free association; in the ideal Chaotic group, no one is "bound" to stay, but each stays because they wish to, with no coercion felt or implied. (Also, I find it very humorous that you consider opportunities a group thing when...well, opportunity seems definitionally personal to me.)

The only difference is between adherence to consistent and predefined rules (you can't "play by the rules" if there are no rules to play by) vs evaluating each choice as it comes (freedom from coercion means...pretty much exactly that.) But both identities can be internal or external ("the law of the land" vs "truth is not decided by popular vote," "I do as I like" vs "you'd do the same for me") and both can operate as individuals or as groups.

A further benefit: these conceptions ("Lawful" as "adherence to consistent and predefined rules," "Chaotic" as "evaluating each choice as it comes") are actually consistent with the descriptions you referred to as "unhelpful," meaning we don't have to completely discard the descriptions and advice given by the books.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
3e says unhelpfully:

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability."
"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility.


A Chaotic person can be trustworthy. If they say they will do it they will. It might not be what everyone else is doing, but the Chaotic person can do their own thing reliably.

A Lawful person can fight for freedom, freedom for the group. For the group to be free from police harassment, freedom from discrimination, freedom from getting shut out of opportunities. It is for the group. It isnt individual freedom but it is real freedom.
Ah, ok I think folks are getting stuck on this idea that law/chaos are polar opposites and that they somehow have the market cornered on their attributes. This explains a lot of the "logic vs emotion" type descriptions that get thrown round. I have always seen it as law and chaos as aiming for the same goal, form a society, they just do it differently. (Things might get a bit literal with planar beings, but thats a whole other enchilada.)
And similar.
The only difference is between self-identifying as a group versus self-identifying as an individual.
(Honor/shame is by definition group identity. Pride/guilt is individual identity.)
I can see where you are going with this, but its not attributes in any definition I have read. Which is fine.
Simpler is clearer. The more variables, the more confusing, and the more self-contradictions happen.
A Chaotic group is about empowering each others individual uniqueness.
Protecting it, and allowing it, perhaps. Though, if necessary a chaotic society might turn on certain individuals if they feel it has become necessary.
Tradition means a group structure transmits from one generation to the next.
Usually, yes.
But Chaotic has nothing to do with random.
There was a dumb example once about a chaotic person not using a bridge, because they were random. For whatever reason chaos being random has stuck and people have stuck with it.
In this context, the group versus the individual is more like standardization versus innovation.
I actually like this best of all your ideas so far.
 

MattW

Explorer
IMHO, "Lawful" refers to a preference for organisation and discipline (to include self-discipline).

The "Evil Overlord List" gives examples of Lawful Evil.
Commander Vimes (as described by Terry Pratchett) is an example of Lawful Good.

The various versions of Robin Hood might serve as a counter-example. Good, possibly - but definitely chaotic.
 


Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
As mentioned before, I don't see how we cannot do exactly the same analysis on your own proposed metric.
There is only one metric: group versus individual. Thats it. Not nine metrics unhelpfully confused under one label. When the metric gets used, it means something.

A Lawful person can be solitary. Holding true to the spirit of the rules when everyone else is cheating is almost definitionally lawful, despite being both a common trope and, sadly, actually a real life event in many cases.
There is such a thing as "the last of ones kind", but it is unsustainable. By definition, the group ends with that individual.

If there is a solitary individual with the Lawful alignment, that alignment is meaningful and conveys information. That person is a group. Perhaps one day that one does run into someone else who is also a member of that group.

A Chaotic person, as you yourself note, can form a group and seek solidarity. They just do so as a free association; in the ideal Chaotic group, no one is "bound" to stay, but each stays because they wish to, with no coercion felt or implied. (Also, I find it very humorous that you consider opportunities a group thing when...well, opportunity seems definitionally personal to me.)
Chaotic people want to be oneself. They want other people to be their selves. They seek companionship, but not conformity.

The only difference is between adherence to consistent and predefined rules (you can't "play by the rules" if there are no rules to play by) vs evaluating each choice as it comes (freedom from coercion means...pretty much exactly that.)
No, thats not it. It isnt about coercion versus noncoercion. It is about group versus individual.

Lawful is about identifying oneself as a group. If group succeeds, the member feels the success, and if the group suffers scandal the member can feel extreme pain. The sense of self - who one is - is wider. As long as the group survives, the member is in some sense alive. The group can be a family, clan or tribe, a place or nation, the community of a sacred tradition, a gender. Any group that deeply defines ones identity.

But both identities can be internal or external ("the law of the land" vs "truth is not decided by popular vote,"
Yes. A Lawful person can happen to be away from the group that defines that person, but the person feels the loss, like they left their arm or leg back there.

The Chaotic person can be social and cooperate, as long as it is on that persons terms, and that person has enough space to be oneself. The Chaotic person cares about other people, but not about being other people. The Chaotic is person is a nonconformist. It is statistically less likely that the Chaotic will happen to want to do something that an entire group is pressuring, obligating, and coercing to do. Indeed, that kind of pressure is often off putting, even if the Chaotic did want to do it.

When dealing with a Chaotic, one must respect the agency of that person. When dealing with a Lawful, one must respect the group of that person.

Of course, most humans are mix of group identity and individual identity. Hence D&D humans tend to be Neutral. But there are groups and individuals who lean toward one of the extremes.

Not sure if the following is accurate animal science but: dogs feel Lawful, as each one is ones pack, and cats feel Chaotic, as each one does ones own thing together.

"I do as I like"
I do what I need to do, can be why Lawful person conforms and why a Chaotic person nonconforms. The self-identity is a need.

vs "you'd do the same for me") and both can operate as individuals or as groups.
Yeah, "Youd do the same for me", can be two Chaotics supporting each others differences, or two Lawfuls sharing each others same identity.

A further benefit: these conceptions ("Lawful" as "adherence to consistent and predefined rules,"
The rules themselves can be Chaotic, like Freedom of Speech. Each individual has a right to spesk ones own mind.

"Chaotic" as "evaluating each choice as it comes") are actually consistent with the descriptions you referred to as "unhelpful," meaning we don't have to completely discard the descriptions and advice given by the books.
A Chaotic individual can be - and often is - consistent. But is nonconformist.
 
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EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
No, thats not it. It isnt about coercion versus noncoercion. It is about group versus individual.
I find that you are not particularly taking my arguments seriously, and that in various places (particularly the quoted bit) you are simply restating your case without actually defending it, despite my efforts to actually engage and show a serious problem. Responding to "well...can't we make the same form of argument but against what you've claimed?" with "No, that is incorrect" is just not conducive to having a discussion, which is why I bowed out previously and why I am going to do so again. My criticism appears to have simply been ignored rather than responded to, so there is no further point in saying anything.

I still maintain that a hardcore, exclusive "Law is group, Chaos is individual" suffers exactly the same problems as a hardcore, exclusive "Law is reliable, Chaos is free" dichotomy, and that it is simply superior to use the metric I've proposed. I have not seen any evidence that meaningfully suggests that Chaos cannot have a very group-centric identity or structure, and I find your "Law can be a group of one" response to be not only woefully inadequate, but completely gutting the very idea of what "group identity" means. When groups are allowed to be as small as individuals and still count as groups, your proposed distinction evaporates, as all Chaotic folks are simply Lawful ones whose group identity is a set that contains only themselves.
 


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