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For Those Who Love, Hate, or Love & Hate 4E: What Did 4E Do Right?

ShinHakkaider

Adventurer
I'm not a fan of 4E. I like some of the design philosophy but really dont like the implementation. The powers system of 4E is probably the main deal breaker for me.

That said I think the Encounter Design mechanics are pretty nice and I'm happy to see that Wulf Ratbane has made an OGL equilvalent for his effort TRAILBLAZER.

I like minions.

I like the death save mechanic.

I also like the condensed stat blocks for monsters in the Monster Manual. If you're not a ridiculously anal retentive 3.5 DM you can do this for 3.5 / Pathfinder as well.
 

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ferratus

Adventurer
THINGS I HATE:

Weapon damage die - 4e should have dumped weapon damage when they moved to a powers system. Generally any weapon that was used for war in the high middle ages was designed to be lethal based on the tactics, training and equipment of your opponents. Even in cases where some weapons are clearly more lethal than others, it doesn't jive with the cinematic flavour of the powers. If I want a rogue with a dagger to kill a paladin in plate anyway, powers are a much better way of describing how it would happen than damage die rolls. All damage rolls do is ensure that the rogue uses a short sword rather than a dagger, even when the more easily concealed dagger would be just as lethal and make more sense.

The House Rule: Damage is decided by power and by role, like spells or prayers. Where appropriate powers that currently have the weapon type will be assigned to various weapon types. This already occurs with the rogue's powers that require light blades, or the barbarian's weapons which require two-handed weapons. Will probably give fighters a "fighting style" mechanic similar to the wizard's implement mastery that gives them a special benefit once per encounter.

Implements - I love the implement mastery feature of the wizard which creates differing wizard schools. I hate implements themselves for a few reasons. First implements have no reason to be restricted for use by one class or another. Why can't wizards use rods? A warlock might use his pact dagger for sacrifices, but what does a sorcerer use it instead of a wand? It just seems unecessary. The second problem with implements is that they are largely the same item spread over multiple forms. Aside from more warlock powers in rods and more wizard powers in staves, what really is the difference between the two mechanically?
The House Rule: All characters, even martial characters, can use any implement. It allows for a free power that the character wouldn't normally have access to (essentially giving away a free multiclass and power feat as an encounter or daily power) but I don't forsee it as being a huge power creep, though it will be a slight one. In the future, I want to organize powers based on certain implements, as I'm doing with weapons.

Encounter building as per the DMG -
The chapter on building encounters in the DMG is just wrong, as was the advice that every combat needs to be a skirmish battle. 4e works so well as an exploratory game with healing surges and encounter powers that not availing yourself to many minor interesting encounters that may not challenge the party as much as a full battle, but can serve to transition through scenes and advance the plot faster. They also still burn off resources, and gives the sense that the party is being ground down by their encounters, without making them feel like they should rest after 1 or 2 encounters. Random encounters in 4e work very well with this design philosophy, where you get a sense of traveling through your surroundings by killing the local inhabitants and creatures. The guy that wrote the chapter on encounters in the DMG that pretty much insisted that every fight be a grindfest should wear a sign during Gen-Con that says "I was wrong, I'm sorry."

Monsters have too many hp/defenses - Game designers are generally game designers because they are arch-geeks. They seem to love a) character optimization and b) enjoy watching the various powers and monster abilities interacting with each other. I imagine that the game designers must either get through their combats faster because they are better at a) than I am, or they don't mind the long combats because of b). For me though, combat is something I do on the way to conquering the dungeon or advancing a plot point, rather than the plot and dungeon being a framing device for combat. I would like to spend about 5-30 minutes on a combat and move on, with perhaps one combat a night that is longer.
The House Rule: I have no real original insights here. The monsters simply have to have some defenses shaved by 2 or 3 points, and some hitpoints reduced by as much as half. Since I'm changing the stat block anyway, I've started randomizing hp to give minor characters a little more surprise and personality in regards to their toughness. Monsters with a gimmick I like, or who are plot-worthy keep their full complement of defenses and hp (except for solos from MM1, who will lose 20% hp).


Skill Challenges - I know this is among the most popular mechanic that gets approval from even those who hate 4e, but I've come to the conclusion that X successes before Y failures is a dog of a mechanic. It forces an artificial narrative of the DM responding to PC's die rolls, and it often lengthens a simple pass/fail scenario needlessly.
The House Rule: Skill Challenges in my game are not a shared challenge among the PC. Instead they are methodology of setting a scene to ensure that several skills are applicable. The skill checks still go around the table, and the complications of each failure and the benefits of each success are still shared by the group, but they are largely doing different tasks rather than cooperating on the same single task.

Having to give up established powers as you go up in level - I hate the fact that if a pick up a power in the heroic tier that suits my character concept, I have to trade it in at a higher level to another power that doesn't fit my character concept as well.

The House Rule: You keep your lower level power. I am toying with making kept low level daily powers become encounter powers. I can't convert encounter powers to at wills like I'd like to (the damage doesn't scale fast enough) but low level dailies are just slightly better than the highest level encounter powers that the character would have in terms of damage. Both these changes would increase the damage output of a character slightly, but as we've established, monsters have too many hp anyway.

Magical items - I started a whole thread about this.

THINGS I LOVE:


Monsters as Gimmicks
- I love that each monster plays differently at the table, like they did in editions before 3e. I loved the strong rules to design a monster based on creature type (giant, undead, etc) and character class in 3e, but in the end the type and class matter much more than the individual instances of the monster. 4e I think, struck the right balance between 1e/2e's free for all and 3e's restricting template. Even if I was to play 3e again, it would have to be with a 4e Monster Manual.

Martial Powers - When people say they don't like that martial characters having powers in 4e, or that the powers system makes all classes seem to similar, I think to myself rather cynically that those must be the type of guy that always played wizards. I always played rogues and paladins, and I love, love, love, the fact that each has unique fighting styles and tricks based on the powers they select.

Epic Destinies - I don't know if every campaign I run or play in will always go to the epic levels. I do however, love the idea that someday my character could be a Fey King, an Archmage, a demi-god or some other immortal part of the campaign world I'm playing in.

Powers - I like that 4e is very much made up of isolated component parts (powers in particular), and each of its parts is relatively different. I don't really get the "classes all play the same vibe" that others have mentioned, given that both the ranger and the thief play much differently than their cousin the fighter in 4e, than they had in previous editions. When Bards were introduced, they play like something brand new, not like a cobbled together sorcerer/thief. The downside of this of course is the fact that you can't play any character you can imagine until there are rules designed to specifically deal with it. It is a trade I'm willing to make though, to get specially designed rules.

THINGS I WANT:

D&D 4e Junior or D&D 4e Storyteller - A version of 4e that I can play in the with my little girl when she's 8 years old in the backseat of a sedan during a long car trip. While I love the fact that 4e has highly specialized rules, uses minis extensively, and has all sorts of neat and intricate powers to use during combat, I want its inverse as well. I want a simple, general, mini-less version of D&D with less math that emphasizes character interaction over combative skirmishing.

I've been scrounging around looking for alternate systems, old editions, and retroclones. The alternate systems however, just aren't D&D. The old editions and retroclones certainly have the feel of D&D, but I while I love old school storylines and settings, I HATE old school unbalanced or arbitrary mechanics (and most aren't as simple as I'd like anyway) So a one-off book geared towards my kids instead of me, that you could pick up for 25 dollars with no further investment, that has a ruleset capable of containing a full campaign is something I desire.

Fan made "Best of" lists for magical items - I would like a group of people to pick out the best 5 magical items per level, based on how exciting or fun they are to use in play (not necessarily the most powerful) and list them on a website somewhere.

Powers organized into Spheres or Schools - Powers can seem like a bit of a grab bag sometimes, and certain classes deal with that grab bag better than others. Wizards certainly fit that mold with their book of spells, as do rogues with their bag of tricks. More specialized classes like the paladin or ranger already have class abilities that largely follow the same theme. The one that struggles the most with the grab bag nature of powers that don't necessarily work together is the fighter.

A fighter suffers from this problem because he is a general martial combatant, while the other martial classes are generally grouped around one weapon type. Barbarian abilities work together because you are assumed to be using a two handed weapon. Rogue abilities work together because it is assumed you are using a light blade. Ranger abilities work together because you are assumed to have a bow or two swords. Fighter abilities though generally have to fit a wide variety of weapons, so their abilities feel the most random. Organizing the powers into schools and particular weapons would give guidance on how to build a consistent character, and fill in the gaps where the powers don't fit a particular archetype. The player would be allowed to deviate from this school if he wanted another power as he wished, but it would reduce the gut feeling of randomness.
 

TheNovaLord

First Post
Things I like about 4th ed

-THE DMG. this book is an excellent up to date read on what our hobby is about. Even non 4ers should get something from it.

-The idea, if not the execution of a skill challenge. It should be more like duty and Honour 'missions'

-as many have said, monsters are monsters, NPCs are NPCS and therefore follow different rules to PC's

-I like games with 'passive' defence, that is the defender doesnt roll...so having FRW as defences is good

-it makes PC's heroes...and therefore is a very well geared up game for playing good PC versus evil 'module'

thats it
 

Hereticus

First Post
Skills: I like the simpler system of 17 skills rather than 30 to 40. We house-ruled Quickness (initiative) as the 18th skill. I do not like that all skills go up at the same rate. perhaps a system where you increase 12 skills by one, and have five to double up on well practiced favorites. I like the skill challenges.

Feats: As a Wizard, I think the feats are better. Some of the martial players in my group were not as thrilled with them. I miss the meta-magic feats, and rarely used item creation in the old system. And once I learned multi-classing (here), I think it is great.

First Level Survivability: 4.0E characters are stronger at first level, but are still limited to fighting Kobolds, Goblins, Skeletons and Beetles.

Variety of Monsters: Much better in 4.0E, you can alter a wider variety of monsters to fight a Heroic, Paragon or Epic group. I like Minions, Elites and Solos.

Martial Exploits: Much superior, this give the 'boring' Fighter so much more to do than in the past.

Divine Prayers: 4.0E killed the Cleric as it was in the previous editions, and I loved playing those Clerics. 4.0E Clerics are closer to 3.5E Paladins, 4.0E needs a divine controller. I have not yet seen a Druid, so I have no comment.

Arcane Spells: First and foremost, I played Wizards in the older editions. As I previously said they are much more survivable at lower levels, can fight better, but I miss spells such as Expeditious Retreat, Silent Illusion, and Rope Trick. No, I haven't purchased arcane Power yet, I only have five books.

Quantity of Books Required to Play: Any group can play with just the three core books, but it seems that WotC is bleeding us dry with an increased quantity of core books.

Rituals: Rituals (and magic items) are the only things that cost gold, and in my opinion they cost too much to cast spells that used to be free. And most take ten minutes or longer, and that is too long. I believe they were designed to take longer than the five minutes I have with a utility spell. And as stated I on another thread here, almost nobody uses rituals at lower levels.

Utility Spells: I love these, and have gotten great use of Feather Fall & Shield, Disguise & Invisibility, and Arcane Gate & Blur. But I also want my Dispel Magic! I would like to see utilities be castable as rituals.

Healing Surges: I see the value, but I do not like them. Giving everyone alot of healing enabled them to get rid of spell casting Clerics.

Character Classes: As I said above, many old favorites are either missing or unrecognizable. If I can find a game, I will try running something other than a Wizard. I chose my old favorite to start with.

Character Races: I like that 4.0E got rid of LA and racial HD from 3.5E, they made many fun races unplayable. However I am not yet fond of new races such as Dragonborn, Deva, Goliaths and Shifters. Give me Drow, Duergar, Svirfneblin, Derro (sane), Lizardfolk, Githyanki, Githzerai, Gnolls and Hobgoblins.

Magic Items: This system stinks. Just add gold and you can instantly have any item you want. This is broken, and I do not see any way to fix it.

Action Points: I like these alot. But give them to monsters and you will see characters cry.

Cosmology: Simple is better, and 4.0 has a much simplified cosmology.

Forgotten Realms: It was overdeveloped and needed a reset.
 
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Zustiur

Explorer
Just a reminder - this is a thread about what you like, not what you dislike.
I've noticed a trend over the last page and a half that is leading towards posts full of dislikes. Making comparisons is fine... just please keep to the topic.

Now for some that I forgot in my earlier post:
* I like second wind as a concept - but I'd prefer to see it as temporary hit points or similar.
* I like that the skills system got a make-over, but I prefer pathfinder's solution
* I like the 4E stat block, and have made a point of using it to run my pathfinder game. Much simpler, and it works!
 

CernunnosX

First Post
I like healing surges. In 2nd and 3rd Edition our group never had a cleric (except for the final campaign we had of 3rd Edition) and healing surges would have really been nice to ease the group off of reliance on the gallons of healing potion they had to cart around or find in the most bizarre places to prevent a TPK.

I don't know if I was mentally defective, but I could never get how to design combat in 3rd Edition. CRs and party levels, I just never read anything clear cut that I understood enough to safely craft combat so the difficulty of fights just wildly fluctuated. In 2nd edition there was no guide other than "fight goblins and orcs early, fight dragons later on." The 4th Edition encounter system is gloriously easy for me to use and I find myself enjoying the spending of my XP on monsters as much as I enjoy picking feats for a newly levelled character.

I think skill challenges are a brilliant idea to add more to the game system out of combat. I don't precisely know how much my players enjoy them, but they're a nice change of pace.
 

resistor

First Post
Martial Powers - When people say they don't like that martial characters having powers in 4e, or that the powers system makes all classes seem to similar, I think to myself rather cynically that those must be the type of guy that always played wizards. I always played rogues and paladins, and I love, love, love, the fact that each has unique fighting styles and tricks based on the powers they select.

I'm one of the people who doesn't like martial powers (at least as implemented), and my favorite characters have always been fighters and barbarians. I absolutely hate playing prepared casters.
 

I, generally speaking, strongly dislike 4e.

That being said, there are a few things I like:

Skill Challenges. Heck, I was using something like this out of Unearthed Arcana for years before 4e, I just like that it went into the core rules.

Rituals (at least in theory, implementation could have been a lot better) I like the idea as a parallel system alongside spells as ways for lower level characters to try big high-level effects out of combat that can advance the plot (like powerful divinations and teleportation), or as a way for an otherwise non-spellcasting NPC to be able to do powerful plot-magics like summoning monsters, or a way for a PC to dabble in magic without derailing into multiclassville. This is another Unearthed Arcana 3.5 thing I was using for years in my campaigns that I am glad made it into the core rules of at least one edition.

No more Level Drain. I always hated Level Drain effects, as a player and DM, and I was really shy about using level draining monsters. 3e made Level Drain a lot easier to undo than 1e & 2e, but it was still out there. This is one thing I wouldn't miss when it leaves.

Warlords (at least in theory). I do like the idea of a Fighter-type class that is more of a leader or commander like the 3.5 Marshal and Knight classes, and I'm glad it's in the core rules (even if I don't like some 4e "leader-isms").

Action Points. I do like making this kind of spendable point PC's have to do neat things or help on a die roll part of the core rules. See also above for "I've been doing this for years with stuff from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana"

Bloodied. I like the idea of a point in the HP track where it's clear that they are taking physical damage and not just minor insignificant damage or near misses. I like the idea that certain abilities or feats only work, or don't work, when you're injured to this extent.
 

Oliviander

First Post
Where does all that money come from ?

To put things clear:
- I was a supporter of 4e on the first spot
- I even like it more after one year of playing
- I played 1st 2nd and 3rd before

I really like a fantasy world that has some credibility

I don't think that a realsistic combat system is needed
to reach that goal, and therefore I can cope with nearly every combat system.
And I think that 4e is a really good one.

But I think a realsitic economic system is essential for my taste of fantasy game,
and therefore the price system for magic items and rituals
is a desaster for that aspect of the game.

These prices only exist to prevent low level characters from purchasing
higher level things, but item prices that high won't fit into any economic
simulation.

The bad thing of 4e is:
If you want to change that point you have to think of many side effects
this change will have.
 

jbear

First Post
To avoid repeting what others have said, and because I like 4e on the whole I will only add one thing which made the biggest impact on me:

I like (love) the philosophy of 'say yes'. Fun is the goal. The Dm is the means to that end. How refreshing and liberating to read that.
 

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