D&D 5E Forced March question

[TallIan]

Snip...
My only issue there is that I've used an "opt into exhaustion" mechanic in a skill challenge a few sessions back, and no one opted into exhaustion. Players, IME, avoid exhaustion like a plague, treating it as a non-choice. If I want it to be treated as a possible choice, how nasty do I have to make the alternatives?

Good point, I see players immediately start looking for some way of taking a long rest as soon as anyone takes a level of exhaustion. Almost nothing else matters.

Maybe one option here is to turn it around and present the players with a choice:

(1) You can automatically reach the settlement in time just as the fighting has begun, but it's going to be a brutal forced march in which you'll make a DC 20 Con save, and if you fail you suffer exhaustion according to the degree of failure.

(2) You can attempt to navigate for shortcuts through the jungle in a skill challenge. You'll be able to expend other resources to avoid exhaustion, but you'll risk not reaching the settlement in time if you fail.

That's a meaningful choice, yeah?

I think so, the party arrives possibly worn out making lots of rolls with disadvantage, but with all resources capable of going nova or they turn up without the fatigue but fewer spells slots and other consumables.

Even if I chose option (1) and whiffed the roll, I'd fell less £%*$ over.

 

[Quickleaf]

Have them spend dice to add the result to their checks (either before or after knowing the result, up to you)?

Cool idea. It's likely they'll have just had a combat, with the opportunity to short rest after, when they spot the gargoyles in the sky during that short rest. So Hit Dice may be at a premium.

There's really no reason not to spend whatever Hit Dice they have going into what they'll know is a big fight. So it becomes a question of "during which of these 4 escalating CON saves do I wish to spend Hit Dice to bolster?"

I'm not sure if that's a meaningful choice or not. What do you think?

 

[Yunru]

Cool idea. It's likely they'll have just had a combat, with the opportunity to short rest after, when they spot the gargoyles in the sky during that short rest. So Hit Dice may be at a premium.

There's really no reason not to spend whatever Hit Dice they have going into what they'll know is a big fight. So it becomes a question of "during which of these 4 escalating CON saves do I wish to spend Hit Dice to bolster?"

I'm not sure if that's a meaningful choice or not. What do you think?

I think it'd be more meaningful if they had a way to spend hit dice in combat (I've always been a fan of a Cantrip that lets a character spend 1/2/3/4 hit dice), but yeah it should be meaningful. Especially if they roll low and have to decide whether to invest further or give it up as a sunken cost.

 

[Quickleaf]

I think so, the party arrives possibly worn out making lots of rolls with disadvantage, but with all resources capable of going nova or they turn up without the fatigue but fewer spells slots and other consumables.

Even if I chose option (1) and whiffed the roll, I'd fell less £%*$ over.

Great, thanks for your feedback!

So I have option #1 covered. That's easy.

Now option #2, the skill challenge, I need to devise how that is structured... So far, I know that instead of (or in addition to) skill checks it's going to require resource expenditure. And that resource expenditure has to have real teeth to make it a meaningful choice. Otherwise my players will immediately say "Exhaustion? Eww, yeah, we'll do the skill challenge, thank you very much."

So what are good resources the PCs might expend in this "forced march" skill challenge? Not exhaustion... Not hit dice (for the reasons discussed above)... Spells yes... but what else?

 

[Quickleaf]

I think it'd be more meaningful if they had a way to spend hit dice in combat (I've always been a fan of a Cantrip that lets a character spend 1/2/3/4 hit dice), but yeah it should be meaningful. Especially if they roll low and have to decide whether to invest further or give it up as a sunken cost.

That cantrip would make for a cool house rule. Unfortunately, we don't have precedent for in-combat HD usage in this game, so it wouldn't be something the players were looking out for.

 

[Quickleaf]

OK, what I have so far is...

Situation: The party sees lots of gargoyles flying a half mile up (2,640 feet) toward Kir Sabal @5mph. These inexhaustible gargoyles will reach the settlement in ~12 hours, possibly a bit longer. They know the settlement has a competent wizard and limited magical defenses, such as air elementals, but without those are no match for this many gargoyles. The sage PC may realize that the gargoyles (which have darkvision) will prefer to attack the aarakocra (who do not have darkvision) at night, and will wait for nightfall to strike – this buys the PCs a bit of extra time. It would take the PCs 2.5 days to reach Kir Sabal at a Fast Pace. However, at a Fast Pace the PCs can cover 5 hexes (50 miles) to Kir Sabal in 20 hours. The players have a choice:

1. Forced March: You can automatically reach the settlement in time just after the fighting has begun (see Scenario B below), but it's going to be a brutal forced march in which you'll make a DC 20 CON save, and if you fail you suffer exhaustion according to the degree of failure (15-19 one exhaustion level, 10-14 two exhaustion levels, 5-9 three exhaustion levels, 0-4 four exhaustion levels). The druid (with Land's Stride) and ranger (with jungle favored terrain) would have advantage on this save, as would anyone riding the warhorse skeleton (which is immune to exhaustion).

2. Skill Challenge: You can attempt to navigate for shortcuts through the jungle in a skill challenge. You'll be able to expend other resources instead of exhaustion, but there are degrees of success/failure, and you’ll risk not reaching the settlement in time if you fail.

## skill challenge mechanics go here ##

(A) They keep up with the gargoyles and arrive at the same time as the attack on Kir Sabal begins. The party can hastily help the aarakocra establish defenses.
(B) The gargoyles arrive at Kir Sabal first and the attack is already under way, with the aarakocra pulling together a desperate defense. Two aarakocra lie dead at the base of the stone ramp, with 5 shattered gargoyles nearby. As the PCs approach, the air elemental holding the line is destroyed, and another gargoyle plummets, landing at base of ramp with 10 hp.
(C) The gargoyles beat them to the chase. Kir Sabal has fallen, and the surviving aarakocra are retreating to the Elemental Plane of Air with the aarakocra golden egg bag (a sacred relic). They need the party to cover their retreat and protect their human wards Mwaxanaré and Na.
(D) Too late: the attack is over, all the aarakocra are dead, the aarakocra golden egg bag (a sacred relic) was taken by gargoyles to Omu, and the only survivors are the human wards Mwaxanaré and Na. The party can't do anything but exact revenge.

 

[Tazawa]

There’s been some really good ideas so far. I thought I would build on them if you’re still interested.

Forced March
I would treat this as a something like a skill challenge. We know the characters can travel 20 miles in 8 hours with no penalty, so I would divide the remaining 30 miles into 3 sections of 10 miles each and require an escalating Con save to avoid exhaustion.
Mile 30: DC 10
Mile 40: DC 12
Mile 50: DC 14

There are a few ways that the characters can try to avoid exhaustion:

- If they aren’t navigating or watching for threats, they can use one of their skills to try and give themselves or another character advantage on the Con save. The DC should be the same as the Con save DC. Note that this is with disadvantage if they have a level of exhaustion.

- They can ride their mounts. Each can probably carry one medium or two small characters. The skeletal horse doesn’t need to make Con saves but the giant lizard does. Count on you players getting creative, having different characters riding the mounts at different times. They may have to leave the lizard behind if it gets tired.

- With a Nature or Herbalism check they can find a stimulant in the temple’s gardens. There should be fewer doses available than there are characters. I would make it give advantage on Con checks and saves for 24 hours but also give disadvantage on Wis checks and saves for the same amount of time.

There’s still a good chance that at least one of the characters will get two levels of exhaustion, halving their speed. If this happens, the last 10 miles will take 8 hours instead of 4 hours and make the difference between arriving 4 hours before the foes or at the same time.

Warning the Settlement
The animal messenger spell or the animal companion could be used to warn the settlement. I don’t know if an archaeopteryx can fly faster than the foes, but I would let them do a Nature check to find a bird or flying dinosaur that is for the spell. If the settlement is warned in advance, they can prepare their defences.

Travel by River
Travel by river is probably faster and they would be traveling with the current (even if it is sluggish), but it doesn’t sound like they have boats. One of the characters can swim and the giant lizard might be able to. I would let them try to build a crude raft they can paddle and pole along if they wanted to. It would take about four hours and require some number of appropriate skill checks.

I would let them travel 3 hexes in the first 8 hours without making a Con save. After that, one DC 10 Con save to get to Mile 40 and a DC 12 Con save at Mile 50 after hiking the last 10 miles through the jungle.

This route could get them to the settlement faster than hiking, but they may have to leave some mounts and equipment behind.

 

[Quickleaf]

There’s been some really good ideas so far. I thought I would build on them if you’re still interested.

Thanks for your ideas, Tazawa. I'm currently thinking of isolating the exhaustion "forced march" approach from the non-exhaustion skill challenge approach, to more clearly differentiate their choices as I mention above. But you've got some cool ideas going on here!

Perhaps I can interpret these ideas as "If you fail at a check during the skill challenge, you need to choose one of the following resources to expend..."

- They can ride their mounts. Each can probably carry one medium or two small characters. The skeletal horse doesn’t need to make Con saves but the giant lizard does. Count on you players getting creative, having different characters riding the mounts at different times. They may have to leave the lizard behind if it gets tired.

Being forced to leave behind pack animals (and possibly gear they're carrying) is a great example of a resource they could expend to succeed at the skill challenge. Thanks!

With a Nature or Herbalism check they can find a stimulant in the temple’s gardens. There should be fewer doses available than there are characters. I would make it give advantage on Con checks and saves for 24 hours but also give disadvantage on Wis checks and saves for the same amount of time.

I'm not sure how'd I'd incorporate that while keeping the exhaustion vs. non-exhaustion approaches separate.

There’s still a good chance that at least one of the characters will get two levels of exhaustion, halving their speed. If this happens, the last 10 miles will take 8 hours instead of 4 hours and make the difference between arriving 4 hours before the foes or at the same time.

Right, that was one of my concerns with running this RAW. After a save is made, then the results of that level of exhaustion kick in. What I feel makes for a better dramatic scene – and why I'd initially been leaning toward 1 gradated CON save – is that the results of exhaustion kick in only after the 50 miles are traveled. In other words, don't "nickel and dime" the players to tears, but make it a heroic choice: "OK, you push through shaking muscles, blistering feet, sweating till your lips are cracked, ready to collapse, but you reach the settlement in time to make a difference. Here's the exhaustion you've each accumulated and its effects..."

Warning the Settlement
The animal messenger spell or the animal companion could be used to warn the settlement. I don’t know if an archaeopteryx can fly faster than the foes, but I would let them do a Nature check to find a bird or flying dinosaur that is for the spell. If the settlement is warned in advance, they can prepare their defences.

They don't typically have that capacity. Animal messenger is not one of the ranger's known spells, and is not typically prepared by the druid. The archeopteryx is from a Warlock (Raven Queen) feature called "Sentinel Raven" which – being part of UA – has a bunch of ambiguity. We interpreted it as an archaeopteryx to fit the Tomb of Annihilation setting, using blood hawk stats (fly 60', same as a gargoyle). It's not intelligent, and rogue/warlock cannot see through its eyes or telepathically communicate when it's >100' away. It's a "spirit" but no mention of immunity to exhaustion.

Travel by River
Travel by river is probably faster and they would be traveling with the current (even if it is sluggish), but it doesn’t sound like they have boats. One of the characters can swim and the giant lizard might be able to. I would let them try to build a crude raft they can paddle and pole along if they wanted to. It would take about four hours and require some number of appropriate skill checks.

I would let them travel 3 hexes in the first 8 hours without making a Con save. After that, one DC 10 Con save to get to Mile 40 and a DC 12 Con save at Mile 50 after hiking the last 10 miles through the jungle.

This route could get them to the settlement faster than hiking, but they may have to leave some mounts and equipment behind.

Cool idea. There's actually a group of goblins with rafts not far away, so they could take those rafts and brave the river for 15 miles.

 

[aco175]

One minor point to think about is if you have checks and some of the PCs fail. You may have group checks to all move at the same pace, but would the PCs leave the slowpoke behind to get to the settlement? The cardinal rule of splitting the party. It may take away some of the fun if one of the players is left behind when the fighting begins.

 

[Quickleaf]

One minor point to think about is if you have checks and some of the PCs fail. You may have group checks to all move at the same pace, but would the PCs leave the slowpoke behind to get to the settlement? The cardinal rule of splitting the party. It may take away some of the fun if one of the players is left behind when the fighting begins.

Splitting the party is definitely not on the table.

The idea behind the skill challenge approach (which I believe is what you're referring to) is that the party succeeds or fails as a party.