Forced Movement & verticals

[MarauderX]

This question may be best asked by example.

The party is walking along a ledge 5' wide. The adjacent water level is assumed to be at the same level as the ledge. The water varies from 5' to 15' deep, stepping deeper at 45 degrees away from the ledge.
Four monsters (grell, otyugh, kuo-toa, and hobgoblin) ambush the wizard from the water. The wizard casts Thunderwave, and of course hits them all! Now he can push them each 3 squares, and decides to shove them away through the water. Now, how far does each get pushed, and can they only be moved horizontally no matter what vertical plane they are on?

The hobgoblin is standing in 5' of water, so his feet are 5' down from the wizard's feet. Should he be pushed further back in the water, he will then be in 10' of water. Can he be pushed over the edge? Does he get a save? If he does, does he fall or float?
The Kuo-toa is in the same boat, so to speak. But the Kuo-toa has a swim speed - does that make any difference? Could the wizard push the Kuo-toa deeper into the water diagonally, to 15' deep?
The Otyugh is a large critter; does she (or are they asexual? missed my DC=35 check) get any save to be pushed into the 15' deep area? Would it assume to be at the highest level that it is standing on?
The Grell floats above the surface. Could the wizard fling the grell away vertically since it has a fly speed and won't be affected by vertical movement? Could the wizard force the grell into the water?

In a related topic, could a wizard use the spell Icy Grasp to grab himself and pull himself up or down vertically? Or is Icy Grasp also restricted to horizontal push-pull?

Thanks in advance -
~MX

 

[James McMurray]

This question may be best asked by example.

The party is walking along a ledge 5' wide. The adjacent water level is assumed to be at the same level as the ledge. The water varies from 5' to 15' deep, stepping deeper at 45 degrees away from the ledge.
Four monsters (grell, otyugh, kuo-toa, and hobgoblin) ambush the wizard from the water. The wizard casts Thunderwave, and of course hits them all! Now he can push them each 3 squares, and decides to shove them away through the water. Now, how far does each get pushed, and can they only be moved horizontally no matter what vertical plane they are on?

I read it to mean that anything which would change your vertical level would give you a save. Sofor your examples I'd say:

The hobgoblin is standing in 5' of water, so his feet are 5' down from the wizard's feet. Should he be pushed further back in the water, he will then be in 10' of water. Can he be pushed over the edge? Does he get a save? If he does, does he fall or float?

He gets a save to avoid being pushed over the edge. If he goes in he follows the normal swimming rules to see if he can stay afloat or not.

The Kuo-toa is in the same boat, so to speak. But the Kuo-toa has a swim speed - does that make any difference? Could the wizard push the Kuo-toa deeper into the water diagonally, to 15' deep?

No change to the hobgoblin example except that it doesn't worry about drowning.

The Otyugh is a large critter; does she (or are they asexual? missed my DC=35 check) get any save to be pushed into the 15' deep area? Would it assume to be at the highest level that it is standing on?

Same as the hobgoblin. Anything that forces you over a ledge gives a save, no matter what your size is.

The Grell floats above the surface. Could the wizard fling the grell away vertically since it has a fly speed and won't be affected by vertical movement? Could the wizard force the grell into the water?

He can push it horizontally, but can't change its elevation. It flies so it doesn't have to worry about saving to not fall into the water.

In a related topic, could a wizard use the spell Icy Grasp to grab himself and pull himself up or down vertically? Or is Icy Grasp also restricted to horizontal push-pull?

All forced movement is restricted. Whether the wizard can target himself with something that targets enemies is up to the GM.

 

[MarauderX]

Thanks. That's kinda what I had predicted, but thought I'd ask.

Also, for a Thunderwave, how high does it work? Does it affect something hovering 10' up?

 

[James McMurray]

The rules are silent on that. We treat blasts and bursts as 3-d shapes in our group.

 

[MarauderX]

Huh, it seems a bit odd. The thunderwave would affect 15' vertically as well as horizontally? Then it could be arranged to affect enemies above or below. I could see an argument stemming from this to allow a character to thunderwave up to 25' high...

 

[dervish]

In the grell example, note that you by the RAW can't push creatures somewhere they couldn't walk. So forced movement is pretty useless against flying creatures. Then again, the RAW in general hates flying creatures so much that it left many issues up in the air.

 

[Journeymanmage]

In the grell example, note that you by the RAW can't push creatures somewhere they couldn't walk. So forced movement is pretty useless against flying creatures. Then again, the RAW in general hates flying creatures so much that it left many issues up in the air.

Well it's a flying creature ... of course it's been left up in the air....

It's 4:20 am and there ya go.

 

[James McMurray]

Huh, it seems a bit odd. The thunderwave would affect 15' vertically as well as horizontally? Then it could be arranged to affect enemies above or below. I could see an argument stemming from this to allow a character to thunderwave up to 25' high...

I'd allow it.

 

[Wotansman]

I had something come up in my game the other day...
I know for the two forced movements it's in reference to you... push you have to move them away from you... pull you have to move them toward you...
My players are wanting to work on moving in an "L" but only when the "L" moves it one square away from you. I think on this I'm going to rule that it can't happen unless there is some strange angles going on. I like that little DMG thing about DM's using "good judgment".

So I guess with that I'm asking what people think about that ruling.

my second question would be about the slide... is that omni-directional? by that they are arguing that you can move them in any direction forward, left, right, backward and both angles. I can honestly see this, but I don't know fully.

 

[James McMurray]

I had something come up in my game the other day...
I know for the two forced movements it's in reference to you... push you have to move them away from you... pull you have to move them toward you...
My players are wanting to work on moving in an "L" but only when the "L" moves it one square away from you. I think on this I'm going to rule that it can't happen unless there is some strange angles going on. I like that little DMG thing about DM's using "good judgment".

So I guess with that I'm asking what people think about that ruling.

As long as the squares are always farther or closer, it's good. If it makes sense for the situation, it's also good.

my second question would be about the slide... is that omni-directional? by that they are arguing that you can move them in any direction forward, left, right, backward and both angles. I can honestly see this, but I don't know fully.

Yep, slide goes any direction you want.