Forgotten Realms and The Great Wheel

[wingsandsword]

Does your Forgotten Realms campaign use the Great Wheel, as implied in 1e Realms and explicitly stated in 2e Realms, or the new cosmology detailed in the FRCS and PGtF?

One of my biggest problems with the new cosmology is that there is one significant metaplot moment in the realms which actually couldn't have happened as written with the new planar arrangement. During the Time of Troubles, Waukeen shed her mantle of divinity and fled Realmspace. Being the patron deity of smugglers and trade routes, she used her contacts to get her smuggled to the Astral Plane, leaving her divine powers in trust with Lliira.

She was able to contact Celestian, from Greyhawk, and use him to smuggle her through the planes (p. 177, Faiths and Avatars). Of course, on the way she was imprisoned by Graz'zt and that leads into the whole "For Duty and Deity" module.

The new 3.x cosmology says that the Realms is the only world out there (which IIRC is against the whole concept of Forgotten Realms, the idea of the setting being it is one of many worlds that have been forgotten and lost to our Earth), and at most it might be possible to contact other worlds through the Plane of Shadow, while 1e/2e Realms was fully in touch with other worlds via the Astral Plane (and Wildspace, if you remember the mentions of Spelljamming in Realms material). The various old Dragon articles with Elminster talking with wizards from other worlds really fuel this model, if they are taken as anything canonical.

So, which does your game use, and why?

 

[cybertalus]

Retconning is a very imperfect art.

Personally it doesn't bother me. Any shared world is bound to have its share of continuity glitches. I've found that the secret is to not be too literal-minded about past events when viewed in the light of later revelations.

Waukeen went into hiding somewhere. Does exactly where and exactly how really matter all that much? And if it does, is it really that difficult to imagine that being the rogue-like diety she is that she wasn't really going to let the true details get out about her escape route? I mean she never knows when Ao might wake up with a migraine and she might need to use it again.

To answer the poll, if I run the Realms again someday, I'll either use whatever the cosmology is as presented in the then-current books, or dump the whole thing and bring back Spelljammer. I always liked Spelljammer way better than the planes stuff anyway.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

or dump the whole thing and bring back Spelljammer. I always liked Spelljammer way better than the planes stuff anyway.

Amen!

As for the Realms cosmology, it wouldn't come up IMC.

 

[Aaron L]

I think the Realms is certainly deserving of its own cosmology instead of being shoehorned into Greyhawks. I never understand the people who complain about this: don't you think FR deserves it's own cosmology? Does it HAVE to get the left over dribblings of Greyhawk and get crammed into an illfitting model?

Now, instead of having to try and fit the planar geograph of EVERY setting ino the same Great Wheel, each and every setting gets to have it's own unique set of planes. I think it's a MARVELOUS way to handle things, and a wonderful way for every DM to customize his world.


Besides, all of the old cross setting travel is still possible through the plane of shadow. They put that bit in thier for a reason. By your own example, Waukeen traveled through the plane of shadow instead of the astral. Simple fix.



BTW, it doesn't even imply that Toril is the only world out there. It says that those are the planes connected to Toril. There is no reason that you couldn't travel far enough through space (the material plane) and get to Oerth, which has it's own planar connections to a different layout of planes.



[edit - ugh retch, please do NOT bring back Spelljammer, real world space for me, thanks. Crystal spheres, phlogiston, and planets on the backs of giant turtles is about the goofiest stuff I have ever seen printed in a D&D book. And yes, I owned a LOT of Spelljammer stuff.]

 

[ArcOfCorinth]

I don't run or play in a FR campaign, but I know even the newer FR novels maintain that Toril is only one of the various worlds. The latest War of the Spider Queen books presents two halflings. One makes it clear he's from both the Material Plane and from Toril. Another halfling is from the Material Plane, but not from Toril.

 

[cybertalus]

[edit - ugh retch, please do NOT bring back Spelljammer, real world space for me, thanks. Crystal spheres, phlogiston, and planets on the backs of giant turtles is about the goofiest stuff I have ever seen printed in a D&D book. And yes, I owned a LOT of Spelljammer stuff.]

[thread hi-jack]
If you'd said giant space hamsters and the hippo-headed Giff, I'd have totally agreed with you.

I liked crystal spheres and phlogiston and can even tolerate the occasional planet on the back of a giant turtle. Although I'm generally aware that they derive from past real world beliefs, they don't distract me nearly as much as things in the Great Wheel do which I can clearly identify with a specific real world mythology. The Outer Planes are the absolute worst for this, and not having to be distracted by references to the River Styx, Elysium, or Hades is another major advantage to the Realms cosmology in my view.

The real problem with Spelljammer was the same problem that other space exploration games have: it's simply too much work to create loads and loads of planets for the PCs to explore without resorting to the Star Wars habit of going "Here's an all desert planet, over there is an ice planet, here's a water planet, over there is a jungle planet, to the left we have a city planet...." Even D&D's standard cosmology did something broadly similar with a decent chunk of the planes, and there's only what 25 or 30 of them?

 

[countgray]

The way the poll is worded shows that the Poll author is biased in favor of the Great Wheel.

No offense to the Great Wheel, I love Planescape and all, but I use the new Forgotten Realms Cosmology (affectionately nicknamed the Great Tree) in my campaign.

The Great Wheel has too much baggage to be appropriate for Faerun. Norse gods, Greek gods, and gods from other Earth pantheons don't really fit or belong in the Realms. The new Realms cosmology is so much more appropriate and well integrated into Faerunian myth and religious tradition.

I am really glad they rebooted the cosmology in 3E. The new cosmology is well conceived and just plain wonderful in my opinion.

And for those Great Wheel junkies who want to play on Toril, don't worry! It is still connected to Greyhawk through the plane of Shadow, so a Faerunian can still adventure on the Wheel with just a short side-wise hop through Shadow.

 

[Dark Jezter]

I like it that the Forgotten Realms now have their own cosmology. Although I'm a big fan of Planescape and the Great Wheel, a specific FR cosmology helps make the setting more unique and special. And if the new cosmology dosen't suit your tastes, you can re-insert the Great Wheel into FR with a minimum of effort.

Besides, I found the FR planes as they are described in the PGtF to be incredibly fascinating, and I hope to send my PCs on a planar adventure or two during my campaign.

 

[VorpalBunny]

I've been using the great wheel since the 1st edition Manual of the Planes and Deities and Demigods, and I see no reason to change that - especially since Sigil and the Planescape setting play a part in my Realms game. I like it, my players are used to it, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[kolikeos]

i don't care much for FR, but i usely use the great wheel in my game