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Forgotten Realms "Canon Lawyers"

There is one simple of using "powerful" NPCs to save the PC's life without frustrating them : letting the player's call for them !

If Gandalf/Dumbledore/Elminster/etc. comes to the rescue when Frodo/Harry call on its relationship to the former (the ending of the fifth Harry Potter book is a good example), the players don't feel useless anymore.

yes, and sometimes it works well (especialy in books/movies/fiction where the writer controls it all)...sometimes it just pisses the DM off though to...


Again my example of (A real game I ran) I had 6th/7th level PCs who went into a dungeon following an evil wizard who had just wreck a bunch of stuff...through the cource of the dungeon (and a nother level or 2) the PCs found out he was a red wizard...He had been part of a group sent out in advance of there invasion...They were going to martch out with thousands of undead and constructs by the end of the year and begin to start a whole war...My intent was for the PCs to try to stop this...BUT there intent was to make the following rounds (First symbul...she I guess is the ruler/archmage that is always fighting them...then elminster...then the lords of waterdeep) when they got to symbol I had her tell them she didn't care...opps I guess that is way out of character...this lead to the argument of I don't want chosen of mystra in my games solving the plot...so I had elmister on a nother plane...so they pulled out 5 or 6 more names I never even herd of before...that was what ended my game...
 

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I mean, they've probably spent a lot of money - not to mention a lot of time - on FR books. It's quite understandable that they'd want to adventure in a world in which they've invested so much.

To have some DM change that which they know is undoubtedly disappointing, and diminsihes the fun they thought they'd have in such a game.

see this is the real problem...there is no badguy here...Player A Player B Player C all sit down to play the game, if A has read the setting back and forward and expects it to be the setting, B knows most but iisn't really that into the setting, and C knows nothing of it...they all have diffrent expactations... If the DM says "X and Y don't work like this" then they know...but if the DM doesn't know waht to say or disallow it get hard.

Imagin you sit down to play Star trek in the Dominon war...but the DM never watched even a min of DS9...you expect changling infltrators, and cardasian enemies.
when you sit down an NPC acts weird...you jump to test for changling the DM say "What are you doing??" or worse just react in game with people thinking you are crazy...and why becuse he didn't know it could happen, so he thinks your weird...

now put it back in the realms you can't change 20+ year of history and not expect fans to look at you like you grew a second head...
 


Faraer

Explorer
So give a counter example...an artical he wrote, and interview he gave where elminster...no change that...any of the big superheros of the realms where used in a way that the PCs mattered at all...I ask only 1 example becuse that is all I can give as well...
They almost never appear in Realms scenarios; on the contrary, it's always been indicated, for instance, that by default, PCs who knock on Elminster's door will usually find he's just not in (he spends much/most of his time walking other worlds). Still, there's the play guidelines in The Seven Sisters, "Realmslore: Storm Silverhand's Quieter Days", and the scenarios in Spellbound. Elminster's principal role in Realmslore is not as any kind of NPC but as an unreliable narrator, one of several devices intended to further assure DMs that their campaigns needn't match published lore. On the other hand, in the short stories (and vignettes in Elminster in Hell) Elminster is used in, the other characters clearly 'matter' very much -- indeed, one of the hallmarks of the Realms is a kind of humanistic egalitarianism in which common folk are quite as important as the bold and the mighty.

Your disproportionate focus on this handful of characters is understandable because TSR and Wizards have encouraged it, but that's not the same as the world of Toril.
There is worse than DMs badly imitating Ed with Mary-Sue characters, the ones trying to replicate this simulationist "roleplaying daily life is so much better than roleplaying combat" style.
I think the roleplaying-over-rules intrigue-heavy style is a perfectly fine one.

(Edit: Just as it's a valid preference to use highly detailed worlds, snide 'continuity porn' accusations notwithstanding).
Player-driven is a very good thing, but I'm not sure I am seeing this in THO's reports.
The basic structure of Ed's campaign is a layered web of rumours (the 'current clack' which was such a notable feature of pre-3E Realms sourcebooks and articles, like the month-by-month run-down of 1356 and 1357 DR in the Old Grey Box) and closer-to intrigue from which the players take up the things that grab them: everything from trials (as in an old Dragon article on law in D&D) to dungeon-delving (for specific PC-chosen reasons rather than general exploration) to training apprentices or maintaining individual investments in distant cities. There's one particularly evocative post where Ed laid out a typical (actually simplified) set of situations and hooks from one point in the Knights campaign, but I'm having trouble digging it out.
 
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jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
Your disproportionate focus on this handful of characters is understandable because TSR and Wizards have encouraged it, but that's not the same as the world of Toril.

OTOH, the only Toril that most people know is that which has actually been published — and that Toril is undoubtedly one of Mary Sue NPCs.
 

Faraer

Explorer
'Mary Sue' is used so vaguely that I'm not sure what you mean by that. Speaking of Ed's work, if you're referring to the core meaning of a perfect self-insertion egoboo character (originally and still primarily in someone else's world as a kind of one-upmanship), that's a long-ago-debunked factual mistake. If you mean something looser, I won't argue your interpretation -- I think the sources, and Ed, speak well enough for themselves.
 

Burrito Al Pastor

First Post
If you look at the Eberron books, you may notice something interesting - there's a lot of "Some people say" and "There are theories" and the like. Eberron is a setting that loves to put "maybe" and "usually" qualifiers on information about the setting, and I think it's much easier to use because of this. They keep the amount of objective information to a minimum, for the most part - cosmology cycles and detailed region maps were the biggest issues in 3e that I saw - and there's a lot of things where very little canon is even possible. (My personal favorite here is Xen'drik, which is magically unmappable.)

I think this style makes Eberron both easier to run and more fertile for ideas for GMs. If you want to do something with some famous NPC in FR (or Greyhawk, to some degree), you have very little control over how that character works; if your PCs meet Elminster (or Mordenkainen, for that matter) and he's a lich, your players will cry foul. If your PCs meet, say, the Lord of Blades, and he's actually a big warforged suit operated by a team of Tiny telepathic gnomes... well, your players don't have a whole lot of room to say "Hey, that's not right!", because 98% of the lore about the Lord of Blades is rumours.
 

Faraer

Explorer
It's odd that Wizards did that with Eberron at the same time as they removed or downplayed the multiple framing devices that serve a similar purpose in the Realms: the discussion of given NPC levels as provisional possibilities in the DM's Sourcebook, the use of current clack rather than hard news, mortal ignorance about the gods and the afterlife, local picaresque storytelling more than the eventual ongoing timeline of large-scale 'canonical' 'major' events, the unreliable narrators who explicitly or implicitly conveyed all Realmslore -- so far from an all-knowing 'Mary Sue', a big part of the point of Elminster's early appearances especially is that he's fallible. "On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true."
 


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