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Forgotten Rums....? Evil Overlords...?

Thorin Firemane

First Post
Just putting in my two coppers . . .

I have written and re-written my posting a few times, trying to adequately state my opinion on the matter, and I keep failing. I'm really frustrated that once again I have been conned into investing in a game that seems to be dying a slow, corporation-induced, death. I really love the 3rd Edtion, but I'm still a little sad when I don't see the old TSR logo on the products anymore.

I hate the thought that Wizards may be heading in a similar direction. I don't think they will go under, but I do think they are slowly sacrificing the quality of their products for the "bottom line". I think the "bean-counters" are destined to win this whole contest, simply because the reality of the situation is that they call the shots. If they feel that "fluffy" FR books are not good sellers, then you can bet that "fluffy" FR books will die. For those of you who are not concerned about the "fluffy" stuff, though, I urge you to remember this: the Bean Counters That Be will not discriminate when the fluff is gone and all they have to look at is the crunch. When the fluff is gone, the crunch will become the low-man-on-the-totem-pole, so to speak, and will likely become the next vicitm.

It isn't a matter of getting "crunch vs. fluff" in our products. The ideal products have a good balance of both, tied to no specific worlds (anyone remember "Tomb of Horrors?") It is a matter of the bean counters thinking they can make whatever they want, and still make us give them our beans. That's right, I said it: "our" beans. We're the ones with the money, people. Wether we decide to give it to Hasbro/Wizards should depend on how willing they are to give us what we want, regardless of what percentage of us want it. The Crunch people and the Fluff people need to work together, so that we can determine what is published, not the Bean Masters, most of whom probably do not even play these games.

I have no interest in the Forgotten Realms at all, personally. But you know what? I really loved Planescape. I know it is still out there, supported by other web sites, but I still miss being able to walk into a local hobby store and see the newest "Planes of . . . " boxed set. I feel for the FR people, whose setting may very well be going the same direction. These things are happening because we let them.

The Silver Marches may well have some background that will inpire you to create a new feat, magic item, or prestige class of your own. Meanwhile, I'd say the Epic-Level Handbook is likely to have some incredible seeds for new campaing ideas. Always remember: The crunch is the framework for the fluff, and the fluff is the inspiration for much of the crunch. Neither will survive without the other.

I consider the Bean Counter "story" to be a warning. Part of our game is about to become extinct. If we let that happen, the rest will soon follow. It happened before, and it can happen again. And we cannot count on someone being there to pick it back up this time. We have been warned.
 

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Orcus

First Post
I'm still a little sad when I don't see the old TSR logo on the products anymore.

Wow. We have now officially come full circle. People lamenting the TSR days and griping that WotC D&D is run by bean counters. If that isnt bass ackwards...

You live long enough you see it all. :)

But I guess it is always the same thing. What starts as a vision, turns into a "product." Products need product managers (insert Dilbert comic strip here).

That is the beauty of d20, to some extent. I am the elf and the bean counter. If I want to make a Judges Guild Wilderlands Boxed Set with all 18 maps in it that will definately barely break even (If I'm lucky) I have the authority to do it! :) Why would I do it? Becasue I am the bean counter. And I can say "I want to make that product. I want to leave a contribution. I think it would be cool."

So I guess what I am saying is that the elves and beancounters need to multiclass. Clark Peterson, human male, CG Elf3/Bnc3.

Clark
 

Mark

CreativeMountainGames.com
Orcus said:
So I guess what I am saying is that the elves and beancounters need to multiclass. Clark Peterson, human male, CG Elf3/Bnc3.

Clark

Bump up those levels a bit, Clark. The ELH is out now and if anyone deserves double digits in both classes it's you, brother...

BTW it is very nice to see the mix of industry people, new and old EN Boarders posting to this thread. It's unfortunate that it takes a controversy of this proportion to get this type of response.
 

Kaptain_Kantrip

First Post
Lords of Darkness is a good book if you run FR, and if you assume that many of the organizations described aren't ridiculous and unusable in a believable context. I bought Lords of Darkness solely for the crunch: maps, rituals, spells, feats, etc. Aside from the Red Wizards, Cyricists and Banites, the rest of the book was for me at least, pretty much a complete waste of space, time and money. There was simply not enough crunch in the book--there was too much cream devoted to utterly dumb lameness: Cult of the Dragon, Shades, Malaugrym, Beholders, and other high-powered, stupid organizations. There were like only three feats! That sucked, even though Phalanx Fighting was a great one. Some of the spells were @#$% reprints. The magic item and drugs sections were too short. Lords of Darkness was okay, but would have been much better with less crap and more crunch. Magic of Faerun was a great book--hardly any FR cream crap in it if you ignore the first part of the book with boomshrooms, mage duels and other retardedness. Lots of crunchy spells and goodies.

I would never, ever buy the Silver Marches. No interest. None. Zero. Zippo. I hope it does fail, so that we get more crunch and less cream in future products. WoTC's idea of "cream" and mine are so radically different that they could probably never produce an intelligent, believable and mature setting I would use. They are pretty good with rules and other crunchy bits, however, so those are the products I buy. More crunch, less crap, please! :D
 
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LostSoul

Adventurer
Ah, what's the big deal. Can you play in the Realms now and have fun? You can? Well then, you don't need anything else. Sure, it would be nice, but them's the breaks. It could be worse.
 

Corinth

First Post
I'm not buying the arguement that the current edition is too rule-heavy. Crunchy games are newbie-friendly because those RPGs look like games and not like something out of bad improv theater; you read what you need to as you need to read it, and thereby learn what you need to learn when you need to learn it. Taking it all in one go is not how its done when it's time to teach the new guy how to play.
 


dema

First Post
Deposits Change

Wow, just read all that.

AV- you rock keep doing what you need to. In our book you are one of us. ( or maybe just a doppleganger)

:(


SRK- keep venting man, I love it.

:D


Everyone else- Can we talk about meat and booze for a change.
Both are filling, both make you feel good. Sure both can cause a brain tumor or something (mad cow, and dead cells.) But it feels so good going down.

:cool:
 

Derulbaskul

Adventurer
Orcus said:

(snip)
That is the beauty of d20, to some extent. I am the elf and the bean counter. If I want to make a Judges Guild Wilderlands Boxed Set with all 18 maps in it that will definately barely break even (If I'm lucky) I have the authority to do it! :) Why would I do it? Becasue I am the bean counter. And I can say "I want to make that product. I want to leave a contribution. I think it would be cool."
(snip)
Clark

This illustrates a point that the D&D products really don't fit, culture-wise, within a Hasbro-type company. Sure, the core books do to a certain extent but the peripherals? No, I don't think so.

It's not a question of "good vs evil": publicly listed corporations have a whole different set of goals and measures than privately owned ones (and forget the Enron jokes). The D&D product line is probably better placed within a private company where, like Orcus says, "I want to make that product. I want to leave a contribution. I think it would be cool."

Cheers
NPP
 

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