D&D 4E Forked: "Math and Grind" or "Why Rechan is Right" (From: "4e One-trick ponies")

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

One thing I have considered is changing all durations to save ends... consistancy is your friend when it comes to tracking - additionally attendant minions can use there actions to grant an extra valuable save (see heal check) ie.. must deal with minions before disabling big bad or its rarely disabled even partially for very long

Why did I never think of that? Yoink! (The closest I came to that was NPCs using Sacred Flame.)

 

[Garthanos]

Why did I never think of that? Yoink! (The closest I came to that was NPCs using Sacred Flame.)

All that is left is being creative about how you describe the aide.

 

[pemerton]

Ye gods! I never played or ran 4e at high levels, and that sheet makes me glad of it. That's way to complicated and fiddly for my tastes. No wonder people suffer "analysis paralysis."

That's probably at the complicated end (though our group's fighter is worse - two sided sheet for two weapons (polearm and really big hammer) - and bucketloads of conditional powers plus conditional feat effects). The sorcerer is a bit simpler - if in doubt, Blazing Starfall - and the ranger simpler again - if in doubt, Twin Strike, plus use 1 immediate action per round.

But I wouldn't suggest anyone start the game with a 24th level PC! And if you really hate crosswords, and M:tG, and chess, and solitaire, then I'm not sure that 4e is the game for you. Combat play definitely depends on the situational deployment of clever combos.

That said, it's no worse than a high leve AD&D caster, I would say - 20+ spells, plus memorisation choices, plus items several of which are probably fairly baroque.

I think I'm looking for some bizarre cross of Dungeon World and 13th Age. I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain that DW was "grindy".

A max level 13th Age wizard has 12 spells, plus some talent/feat abilities, plus up to 10 items. That's still going to be over 20 effects to keep track of.

DW I don't know as well (I've got an early version that was a free download), but I would think it's less option-intensive.

 

[Ratskinner]

That said, it's no worse than a high leve AD&D caster, I would say - 20+ spells, plus memorisation choices, plus items several of which are probably fairly baroque.

A max level 13th Age wizard has 12 spells, plus some talent/feat abilities, plus up to 10 items. That's still going to be over 20 effects to keep track of.

Oh, I know. I balk at it in those games as well. Although I will say that I think the mechanical fiddliness of the individual effects is higher in the WotC editions than the others, magnifying the impact of the pure effect count. Additionally, almost any 4e character will approach that number of effects/moves, while 13th Age has a few classes who max out with less than a pageful of handwritten notes (at least the way I do them.)

DW I don't know as well (I've got an early version that was a free download), but I would think it's less option-intensive.

I find it hard to compare, because DW does things so differently. It seems to be much less complicated, but I'm not sure if that's just because its mechanics resolve at such a verbal-narrative level rather than number-geometry level. The base DW game still relies on lists of spells for its casters (mostly as an homage to D&D, I believe) and gives them a "Cast a Spell" move. However, there's no real reason you couldn't have a magic-using class with moves like:

Boom!
When you weave a spell to unleash elemental fire, frost, wind, lightning, or thunder against a close or near enemy, Roll + INT. On any hit, d6 damage to your target. Additionally, On 10+, choose two; On a 7+, choose one:

• also deal the damage to anyone near the target
• range is far
• increase the damage to 2d8
• the spell creates an ongoing danger (a fire, ice near the target, etc.) or destroys a flimsy structure.

On a miss, choose one:

• you have burned out some of your magic, take -1 ongoing to INT until you have a chance to rest a bit.
• your spell attracts unwanted attention
• your spell puts an ally in danger

...and skip a spell list entirely.