D&D 4E Forked Thread: 4e Artwork

[Gradine]

Forked From: First Dark Sun Except!!! (pg 4)

Split from the Dark Sun discussion regarding WotC's artwork.

I call shenenigans. The last three major motion pictures I've seen in the theatres have all had a "damsel in distress" that has been rescued by the male hero. A large portion of the audience (male and female) enjoy seeing that. Those movies, by the way, have all done pretty well. Audiences didn't seem to mind that much. (they are:

Spoiler

Iron Man 2, Robin Hood, and Avatar

).

Maybe. You're probably right, in fact. I never saw it that way when I was growing up, and my girlfriend doesn't either. But I can see your point (and you're at a disadvantage here, having never seen the piece... it's from the dungeoneer's survival guide, or maybe the wilderness survival guide, from 1e days). For what it's worth, the thing I liked about it was the fact that it was WOLVES they were afraid of - it had a very sword & sorcery, "Conan" vibe to it.

I'm not saying I want super sexist pictures in D&D, either. I have no problem if the man is being protected by the woman. What I want are pictures that are STORIES. I want art that says "these are stories that you can play", as opposed to the general philosophy of 4e: "These are characters that you can play". There's a difference in approach, and I prefer the older way.

Never been called a grognard before. Kind of weird, being under thirty and all.

I've seen two of those three films, and neither of those two have anything remotely like the classic "damsel in distress" scenario. In fact, both of the movies in question (Iron Man 2 and Avatar) actually feature extremely competent and intelligent female characters. Pepper Potts may find herself in danger a few times but she generally shows she take care of herself. The only thing she really needs saving from is an

Spoiler

explosion

. Avatar itself has a slew of its own issues (it is, after, Pocahontas IIIIN SPAAAAACE) but damsels in distress is far from one them. Heck, the movie has Michelle Rodriguez and Sigourney Weaver in it, for crying out loud.

(Fun Fact: Amongst my friends, Sigourney Weaver fills a similar role that the internet usually reserves for Chuck Norris. For instance: They say that Chuck Norris has balls of steel. That's because Sigourney Weaver keeps his real ones in a jar on her trophy case.)

Maybe the circles I run in a bit more perceptive to the Unfortunate Implications present in popular media (Disclaimer: I work in higher education), and so I'm more prone to hearing the outrage when such media appears to cross a line (intentionally, or usually unintentionally.) Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy Conan as much as the next guy. But I do recognize it for what it is: a cheesy sexist relic of an age long gone. We live in a more enlightened time (or a more "enlightened" time, if you prefer), and those kinds of scenarios just don't appear very often (or appear very rarely) in modern era. Even those characters in need of rescuing these days are far from the useless damsels in distress of the yesteryear.

I do totally get you about 4e's artwork needing to do more to tell a story. This is essentially what I meant when I said the artwork needed action (I was referring more to dramatic action than SWORDFIGHTS and EXPLOSIONS!!! action, though they can be one in the same.) The recent covers look like a collection of the D&D world's strangest family portraits. By far my favorite artwork of the WotC era comes from the 3.5 Eberron books. I'm not even a huge comic book fan, but the style they used seemed to fit perfectly for the setting, and they definitely told a story.

And shame on me for making assumptions about a person's age, though I suppose grognard refers more to length of time within the hobby and attitude more than actual age. Heck, I'm probably only a few years younger than you, and I started with AD&D 2e. When 3e came out I was, what... maybe 15, and I was very much a grognard in attitude ("Skills? Feats? Spontaneous casting?! This isn't real D&D!")... heck, it wasn't until college where I had to be eased into 3.5 via Star Wars D20 before I'd give a new system a chance.

 

[circadianwolf]

I call shenenigans. The last three major motion pictures I've seen in the theatres have all had a "damsel in distress" that has been rescued by the male hero. A large portion of the audience (male and female) enjoy seeing that. Those movies, by the way, have all done pretty well. Audiences didn't seem to mind that much.

I have no idea what the original thread was about, but this is *hilarious*(/sad, pathetic, and disgusting). Male privilege at its finest.

 

[Klaus]

I call shenenigans. The last three major motion pictures I've seen in the theatres have all had a "damsel in distress" that has been rescued by the male hero. A large portion of the audience (male and female) enjoy seeing that. Those movies, by the way, have all done pretty well. Audiences didn't seem to mind that much. (they are: Iron Man 2, Robin Hood, and Avatar).

Find other examples. Pepper Potts held her own against Justin Hammer, Natasha Romanoff outshone Happy in the invasion bit, Ney'tiri was formidable in Avatar and ended up saving Jake more than once.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Personally I think the best artist they've had around for recent D&D art is Wayne Reynolds, who's done a bunch of 3e, some 4e and a lot of Pathfinder's art. I'll say he's someone who exemplifies modern D&D art more than anyone else. And his art tends to have everything that runs against "classic fantasy art" as he's more about depicting an actual party of PCs, as there tends to be 1 or 2 female characters, characters of different races and colours, and that they are doing something beyond just posing for the picture. I'd say he's probably quite influenced by comic books based on his work.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Wayne's a good artist but he has a number of problems including stubby arms with bad foreshadowing (Orcus figure, fire giants, and shark dude from adventure that was never published I'm looking at you) and a lot of his action scenes are boring. They are like posing action scenes and don't have enoguh actually going on in terms of contact.

 

[Wik]

Find other examples. Pepper Potts held her own against Justin Hammer, Natasha Romanoff outshone Happy in the invasion bit, Ney'tiri was formidable in Avatar and ended up saving Jake more than once.

Um. The point in the original thread is that the "damsel in distress", in some form, is a cliche, but not one that is done to death. Yes, these are strong women and whatnot, but there are definitely parts where they are rescued by the male lead. And all of them are, at least in terms of presentation to the audience, subservient to the male.

I have no idea what the original thread was about, but this is *hilarious*(/sad, pathetic, and disgusting). Male privilege at its finest.

If you're calling *me* sad, pathetic, and/or disgusting, we're going to be having a problem, you and I. If you're talking about how this happens in the theatres, you're entitled to your view. Personally, I believe (and I've done numerous feminist classes, so don't go labelling me some sort of chauvinist) that this sort of behaviour is entrenched in our cultural means of thinking, and that a significant portion of the female audience *enjoys* the idea of being "rescued".

I see nothing wrong with that.

As for the original post, it goes down to this: I believe that any time someone makes a deliberate attempt to include a "fair balance" of ethnicities in a work of art, it is sort of insulting, and self-defeating. If you have an adventuring party that is white guy, asian guy, black guy, and hispanic guy... you're still leaving out the east indian guy, the native american (seriously - where the hell are native americans in D&D art!?), the laplander guy, the south american, the....

My original post only barely mentioned the "damsel in distress". Essentially, I was saying that I wish 4e art had more "damsel" style pictures, though I meant it in a sense that the "damsel" could be male or female. Essentially, I want more art that tells a story, and is less about W.A.R.'s characters flexing or posing. I want more scenes where the PCs are not in immediate danger, and are instead interacting with the world around them peacefully.

 

[Obryn]

Well, I dunno if this is the thread to mention this or not, but this is simply one of the best pieces of D&D artwork I've seen in a long while.

-O

 

[Markn]

Obryn,

Where is that one from?

 

[Gradine]

Well, I dunno if this is the thread to mention this or not, but this is simply one of the best pieces of D&D artwork I've seen in a long while.

-O

Absolutely. This thread is, after all, ostensibly about D&D art. It's just that the conversation that triggered the thread also dealt with a great deal of social justice and unfortunate implications in D&D art.

 

[Gradine]

As for the original post, it goes down to this: I believe that any time someone makes a deliberate attempt to include a "fair balance" of ethnicities in a work of art, it is sort of insulting, and self-defeating. If you have an adventuring party that is white guy, asian guy, black guy, and hispanic guy... you're still leaving out the east indian guy, the native american (seriously - where the hell are native americans in D&D art!?), the laplander guy, the south american, the....

We can't possibly include a person of every race in every piece of art, so we just shouldn't bother at all? This is just a simplistic and illogical argument, and it's based off of one of the biggest misconceptions political correctness opponents have about diversity. They think it's about "fair balance", or about appeasement. It's not. It's all about privilege.

Look at popular media in this country (and from Europe) over the last century. Until very recently, the only people who were allowed to be the "heroes" were fair-skinned, and usually male. For a very long time the fantasy genre has fallen in lockstep with this. The first Conan movie is the perfect example: the woman is the sacrificial lamb, the asian guy is the comic relief, the black guy is the villain. The diversification of fantasy art in the most recent decades is an attempt to correct that privilege. It has nothing to do with appeasing and including every single possible real-world culture, and it has everything to do with the avoiding the whitewashing the genre has, until recently, been completely inundated with.

And again, as I mentioned several times in the previous thread (though it bears repeating here) D&D parties are encouraged to be diverse, be it race, class, or background. The more diverse the party is, the broader the possibilities exist in both gameplay and RP. Why not reflect that in the artwork?