Forked Thread: Changeover poll

[BraveSirRobin]

If anything, I think the results of this poll might be skewed by the fact that a lot of the gamers who chose not to migrate to 4E no longer visit this forum, but instead are over in the 3E/3.5E forums, or over at Paizo talking about Pathfinder. If they were still here, I think we'd find the "switched upon release" numbers to be even higher.

I would think this would mean exactly the opposite, if it means anything at all. Those that are resistant to change now, were probably resistant to change then. Or maybe not. Most likely there is an equally represented sample.

 

[cthulhu_duck]

I'm curious if people jumped to 3e immediately after release, or did so gradually. Thus, the poll.

I'm not sure how to answer, given that I didn't 'jump' to 3e.

We weren't playing 2E beforehand. When 3E came out, a number of us became interested in D&D again, and picked it up more or less on release.

 

[haakon1]

Switched to 2e the day it was released, read it avidly, had to houserule for my half-orc assassin to continue playing (as a player).

Stopped playing D&D within a year, except for occassional AD&D (player) or Oriental AD&D (DM).

Restarted D&D 8 years after 2e came out, using AD&D (DM). Brought in people who hadn't played in year or who had never played.

Played AD&D until about 2001, then switched to DM'ing 3.0 after being introduced as a player within a few months of release.

Switched to 3.5 within a month of release.

Grognard but open minded enough to attend WOTC game day in Seattle and get a signed copy on day one. Still haven't played 4e yet (friends didn't want to play/wanted to leave from game day). Strictly anti-4e in attitude, from rules-reading only. Main issues: feel and lack of convertibility from earlier games.

Intend to DM in 3.5 and be a player in 4e, but the 4e campaigns haven't gotten rolling yet -- will surely play within a year.

Is it different from my slowish adoption of 3.5e? So far, yes, in that my peer group reinforces the "no 4e" sentiment, with a few exceptions, whereas some of those same peers convinced me to do 3.0.

 

[Zil]

We started a new 3E campaign probably about a month and a bit after the new rules were released (and we had time to read and absorb them). Once we started playing, we were hooked and our longer running 2E/2.5 campaign was converted over to 3.0 within 3 months of release and we never looked back (other than to convert/pull forward things as needed).

This time around, things are going a bit different. There is a new 4E campaign that we are playing (every 2nd or third week), however the majority of the group is not really enamored with the changes in 4E. I suspect that we'll continue to play 4E once in a while, but that most of our D&D games will go the Pathfinder/3.5 route (that is what we are playing most often these days).

 

[BryonD]

No good reason? How about it is no longer being supported.

First, how much more support does it need? I'll be dead before I use everything that exists already. And I'm still young and healthy now.

Second, I'd say there is a huge difference between "not being supported" and "not being supported by Wotc".

Third, even if people leave 3E they still have "no good reason" to switch to 4e if they don't like it. And THAT was what I said. To "switch" requires more than simply leaving 3E.

I am another that plans to switch over in probably 6 to 9 months after RL issues slow down. I think Hussar probably has the right of it. There is of course going to be holdover, and probably much larger then the one from the previous switch, but I also think the large majority will switch over. That is why I am switching over, that and that I am somewhat tired of the 3e ruleset. The mechanics really just aren't that fun for me anymore.

Noted.

And completely unmoved in the notion that the overall numbers won't change very much at all.

Of course, some people will pick it up 6 months from now and two years from now. That doesn't mean that the overall percentages will move by any significant amount.

Heck, I still think that the been-there-done-that burn out factor will be higher in 4e than in any prior edition. Who knows, six months from now they may be losing players faster than they gain them.

 

[BryonD]

Why BryonD? That's what you consistently fail to answer. Why should it be different this time around?

You must be some other Hussar, because I've given about 50 answers to that question to a Hussar over the past year.
Short and sweet, by a vastly larger margin than ever before a large number of players in the prior edition think the new edition sucks. It may be that if you ask 50 people why you will get 55 different reasons. Doesn't matter.

Last time around, it took time for people to make the switch over. Why should it suddenly be that the only people who switch will do so immedietely and everyone else will stand their ground?

How about you give us a straw man argument loaded with absolutes and no room for exceptions. Oh, wait....

There are any number of reasons not to make the switch right now. Yes, it could be that people don't like the new edition. It could also be time factors, money, lack of knowledge, or any number of other things.

Yep.

The idea that unless you change immeditely you will never make the switch is ludicrous.

Whew, good thing nobody said that then.

It's funny how your tune has changed though. Before you insisted that everyone made the switch to 3e right away. When that was shown to possibly be false, you automatically assume that anyone who isn't changing is doing so because they don't like 4e.

How about NOT putting words in my mouth huh? Any chance you can make your case without completely lying about what I said?

I never said that anyone who hasn't changed doesn't like it. I said that a very large number of people who don't like won't ever change. That is a completely different statement.

And that number is big enough to make a huge difference between this time and prior times.

The much higher popularity of 3E now vs. 2E then is also relevant.

And, your own poll has pretty well kicked the feet out from under your claim of it being the same.

I'm just showing that it took time for 3e to filter down through the ranks. There's no real reason to think the same thing won't happen again.

Do some people not like 4e? Of course. Then again, lots of people railed against 3e too. There's a reason you can't talk about 3e on Dragonsfoot.

But, eventually, the majority of players did make the switch. What evidence is there that this won't be the situation this time?

LOL

If you are going to compare ENWorld to dragonsfoot, then in order to complete the analogy you must point me to the new website that has sprung up to service the throngs of 4E fans. If ENWorld is the new Dragonsfoot, whats the new ENWorld? There ain't one because things are different this time.

It is laughable to claim that the proportions are the same. Yeah, there were some detractors. Early after the announcement there were LOTS of detractors. By a few months before release, the overwhelming bulk of the fan base was completely on board for 3E. Here we are a month after 4E's release and the divide is clear. (There's another difference, a month after 3E came out the arguments were about different ways of doing things in 3E, not threads like this one).

You want to play a game of "evidence". Fine. I got no proof. What proof do you have that it will be the same? People who did decide they hated 3E after it came out did NOT come around in large numbers. Can an exception or 4 come out of the woodwork? Sure. But, as you pointed out, you can not even discuss 3E at Dragonsfoot. The great majority of haters remained haters. Those who didn't change for other reasons eventually changed. The haters didn't. Same thing this time. Except there are a much bigger percentage of haters. I'm sure my lack of proof will make the divide just disappear in a puff of smoke.

 

[NiTessine]

I switched to 3.0 right when it was released. In fact, I ended my AD&D campaign before release to run my group through the orange Dungeons & Dragons Adventure box, with the little cardboard counters and premade characters and the poster map of a dungeon.

Likewise, I made the switch to 3.5 immediately after getting the books.

I'm still playing 3.5, and will continue to do so in the foreseeable future. I will also be running Pathfinder RPG once the beta becomes available and I am able to get a group going after I move next month.

 

[Hussar]

If you are going to compare ENWorld to dragonsfoot, then in order to complete the analogy you must point me to the new website that has sprung up to service the throngs of 4E fans. If ENWorld is the new Dragonsfoot, whats the new ENWorld? There ain't one because things are different this time.

How's 'bout this?

It's amazing how we can read the numbers completely differently. During the change from 2e to 3e, half of those who made the change did so some time after release. Yet, with 4e, apparently, those who haven't made the switch will never do so.

You see this huge population who thinks 4e sucks. I see a small minority of very loud posters who repeat the same mantra in thread after thread.

 

[mmu1]

How's 'bout this?

It's amazing how we can read the numbers completely differently. During the change from 2e to 3e, half of those who made the change did so some time after release. Yet, with 4e, apparently, those who haven't made the switch will never do so.

You see this huge population who thinks 4e sucks. I see a small minority of very loud posters who repeat the same mantra in thread after thread.

Your own poll is now showing that 73% of people who converted to 3E did so in 3 months or less.

Meanwhile, if I recall the numbers from pre-release polls correctly (and I think I do, since to be honest, it stuck in my craw that more people weren't right-thinking 4E haters like me ), the number of people who are saying they won't play 4E has actually slightly INCREASED following the release.

No matter how you try to spin things, those are not similar trends. It's always possible that by the 3-month mark things will turn around and there'll be some substance to your claim, but the facts right now actually suggest the opposite.

 

[Hussar]

The split according to the poll that this thread was forked from is 60:40, with 60% having made the switch.

We're only one month into 4e, so, including that second batch in your numbers is a bit premature. Wait a couple of months and see what happens.

There are no facts that suggest the opposite. SIXTY percent made the switch already. Which is IDENTICAL to the numbers presented here. In two more months, I'll be willing to bet thath the number will be about 70% as well.

This is what I don't get. The numbers are EXACTLY THE SAME. 50-60% making the switch immediately. We won't know for a couple of months about the others, but, I have no idea why there is this huge assumption that it will be so different this time around.

I'm more than willing to bet that it was the same when 1e went to 2e as well.

People are making a tempest in a teacup. There is no huge divide other than in some people's minds. There is no "dropping off" yet. Heck, the fact that they've already gone to second printings pretty much points to a decent success. 3e didn't go to a second printing until months after release. Now, granted, we don't know the print sizes, but, considering this is WOTC, I'm going to guess that they're print runs are around a couple of hundred thousand.

Not to bad for a game that growing numbers of people hate.