Forked Thread: Preview: The Shaman, the first broken class.

[Kitirat]

Ok so looked at the shaman and unlike the other broken aspects of 4th (battlerager, I'm looking at you) the shaman is the first which breaks from the internal balance of the game and is not just some combination or "Extra" which was not playtested well. It is a fundemental aspect of the class which is the issue.

We now have a class with a damage resistant (10+half/level) pet which only does minimal damage to the shaman when it is killed, that can go off and "be its own adventurer" and come back whenever it likes.

The beast-ranger's pet has the cost of time if it dies. The shaman takes very little damage (especially at higher levels) when his "pet" dies, making it the perfect "go adventure for us" pet.

Example. Shaman walk up to a village full of goblins with his party and says "Don't worry guys, I got most of this one". He summons his spirit and has it kill off most of the village while the rest of the party goes back to the tavern for a drink. He hides, occassionally takes damage when a higher end goblin uses some encounter powers to off his pet, only to have him resummon it and have it go kill off more of the village. It is immune to minions afterall. Eventually he calls in his team mates to go clean up the brutes, artillery and lurker mobs which remain.

Horrible. The mechanics on the table will be a nightmare as well with the spirit appearing everywhere on the map (20 range summon) and has many burst type effects which will make this thing a nightmare to DM for.

Hate it. Least favorite class by far (even worse then the artifier).

Only core class I will not allow in the game.

 

[D'karr]

Hate it. Least favorite class by far (even worse then the artifier).

Only core class I will not allow in the game.

Funny because I just had a player use an artificer this past weekend and it was not broken at all.

Reading the classes usually does not give a good measure of their "brokenness". I still remember the cries of despair when the Mystic Theurge was announced and that was not even close to broken. Oh, and the monk. That was a funny outcome. The class that was "so broken" was one of the weakest in play.

 

[Kitirat]

Funny because I just had a player use an artificer this past weekend and it was not broken at all.

Reading the classes usually does not give a good measure of their "brokenness". I still remember the cries of despair when the Mystic Theurge was announced and that was not even close to broken. Oh, and the monk. That was a funny outcome. The class that was "so broken" was one of the weakest in play.

Just to clarify, I think the shaman is broken, but the artifiicer is IMO, not broken, I just do nto like the flavor of it. Up to the shaman, it was may least favorite class overall, but now the shaman is.

As for reading as opposed to playing. Sure that is always the case. However can you see a reason how the situation above (shaman outside the village) could not do it without a lot of DM handwaving? How about a room full of minions which are now no longer a challlenge?

 

[OchreJelly]

each new class preview has generated at least one "most brokenness" thread or another. I'll reserve judgment for actual play.

I don't really think the OP's example is very fair either. I mean the shaman still has to be present in order to take on the whole goblin village. Why would the goblins ignore the shaman while his spirit is running around causing havoc?

 

[the Jester]

My guess would be "because it isn't fun for anyone."

Not to mention the simple fact that your spirit companion is not going adventuring without you. It's a class feature, not a separate creature. It accompanies you.

I guess some dms might allow this, but me? Hell no! My advice to everyone is, give up on legalistic readings of the rules and, when in doubt, look for the answer that provides the most fun.

 

[vic20]

However can you see a reason how the situation above (shaman outside the village) could not do it without a lot of DM handwaving? How about a room full of minions which are now no longer a challlenge?

There's a DM at the table too, and he/she can easily prevent this. I'm not saying it's not a new thing to think about, but it shouldn't be a game-breaker at all.

 

[Blizzardb]

You may be basing your reasoning on a false assumption - that the shaman spirit companion may operate on its own, without the shaman present; that they share senses; or that the shaman can command it without revealing himself from hiding. None of this is indicated in the preview. The village of goblins will make short work of the shaman while he is trying to command his companion.

As a side note, although it is irrelevant, the damage threshold isn't that high - most non-minion creatures will have the chance to deal critical damage to the spirit companion.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

The Shaman in WOW is horribly broken, so it makes sense why the Shaman in 4e is broken as well.

Just kidding, but seriously - yeah, something's a bit wonky with the Shaman. The 4E base design fundamentals were seemingly ignored.

 

[Jack99]

As for reading as opposed to playing. Sure that is always the case. However can you see a reason how the situation above (shaman outside the village) could not do it without a lot of DM handwaving? How about a room full of minions which are now no longer a challlenge?

The spirit can't move further than 20 squares from the shaman. While it is a good range, the goblins could probably find the shaman quickly and deal with him since he needs line of sight and line of effect to make it. This is no different than a wizard casting a flaming sphere or a stinking cloud in the village and moving it around.

So no, it's not broken from what I can tell.

 

[Mournblade94]

The Shaman in WOW is horribly broken, so it makes sense why the Shaman in 4e is broken as well.

Just kidding, but seriously - yeah, something's a bit wonky with the Shaman. The 4E base design fundamentals were seemingly ignored.

Every new edition eliminates the problem of lots of supplemental books, and the balancing issues that go with them. As 4th ediition grows, the same balance problems will arise.