Which helps somewhat AND the more important factor that Chariot power doesn't have the same problems as Fly did.
I can deal with Chariot easily, Fly not so much.
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Forked Thread: Rate WotC as a company: 4e Complete?
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Which helps somewhat AND the more important factor that Chariot power doesn't have the same problems as Fly did.
I can deal with Chariot easily, Fly not so much.
Andor
First Post
Plus of course the one that everyone seems to be missing is this:
All day overland flight costs the same as a level 5 magic item.
Huh?
MM pg 146. Hippogriff and Griffons cost 1000 gp. The same as a standard 5th level magic item. What level was everyone complaining about all day flying at? *drum roll* 5th!
Ta-da!
Oh well, at least it can't be abused because not everyone has Ride as a class skill. Wait. What? There is no more ride skill? Everyone is automatically fully proficient at riding everything from Steelback Chihuahuas to Needlenosed Landsharks?
Well, they are hard to train, right? D'oh! No more training rules!
Wow I sure am glad 4e cleared that problem up!
All day overland flight costs the same as a level 5 magic item.
Huh?
MM pg 146. Hippogriff and Griffons cost 1000 gp. The same as a standard 5th level magic item. What level was everyone complaining about all day flying at? *drum roll* 5th!
Ta-da!
Oh well, at least it can't be abused because not everyone has Ride as a class skill. Wait. What? There is no more ride skill? Everyone is automatically fully proficient at riding everything from Steelback Chihuahuas to Needlenosed Landsharks?
Well, they are hard to train, right? D'oh! No more training rules!
Wow I sure am glad 4e cleared that problem up!
I didn't know eggs could fly.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
Ask the Black Knight and Valkyrie from Marvel comics. They might be able to explain the difference... if they weren't superheroes.
I think 3/4 is a just a bit of an exageration dont you? Considering we were talking about flight in a dungeon any creature in the book with hands to use missle weapons, a climp speed to just run up the walls or ceilings and get to the wizard anyway, a breath weapon the reach him or any sort of ranged spell like, extraordinary, or psionic ablity was on fairly equal footing. I havent counted but i really doubt that 3/4 of the monsters in 3e dont have any of those abilities.
As for the ones that ones that dont? Oh well, the wizard got a good spell in that made him alone pretty much immune to most of the vermin and basic animals in the book. I dont really think that its so terrible that a couple of big bugs and some animals arent a threat to a 5th level guy anymore.
I can.
Although I think the Griffon egg should be priced as a 7th level item rather than a 5th level one (just the same as a warhorse is priced as a 3rd level item, being a 3rd level mount).
Hussar
Legend
No, I don't consider it to be an exaggeration at all.
Hands assumes humanoids or giants. So, they can be used.
Climb speed? Well, sort of. But, the flier simply has to keep some space between him and the climber and he's golden. Climb simply won't really work.
Psionics? Mind Flayer is CR 8. AFAIK, nothing else has anything close.
How many CR 5 or lower creatures actually have a ranged attack? Not too many. Some do. Some fly as well. But, the vast majority don't.
Sure, if you ensure that all dungeons have ceiling height of Monster +3 feet, then fly isn't a problem. So long as you never adventure outside, or in large areas.
In other words, the existence of this spell limits what we can create. We HAVE to take this into account when designing adventures. Because if we ignore it, then it can easily overpower encounters - either by completely negating them by bypassing, or making them ridiculously easy because the monster cannot reach the party.
That's why fly is a problem. It forces, in a way that most other spells don't, DM's to specifically take it into account when designing adventures.
Now, on to Andor.
Yes, you can buy flying mounts. But, that becomes difficult. The mounts have to be fed, can be killed, and certainly don't give you perfect maneuverability like fly does. You cannot, for example, use a mount to constantly overcome terrain difficulties like you could with an Overland Flight spell.
Humanoids are a large group of monsters, and are especially common at lower levels.
Climb works fine, fly doesnt make your speed that fast, and i forgot the several beasties that have a jump ability.
You cut out the part about the supernatural, spell-like and extraordinary abilities which are more common and taken as a whole covers many more creatures.
Out of just the MM1 i will start at CR 1. no need to do the half CR's, aquatics or humanoids, so this will just be the non humanoids who qualify as having ranged attacks of some form, a fly speed, a fast enough climb to catch a flyer indoors, or burrow to just avoid and nerf the wizard.
dark mantle, Giant Bee, nixie, psuedodragon, monstrous spiders, lantern archon, bat swarm, imps, hippogriff, quasit demon, thoqqua (can just burrow till fly wears off), allip, arrowhawk, ankheg (burrowing again), giant eagles, medium or large air or earth elementals can both deal with flyers in different ways, ettercap, Gaint wasp, locaust swarm, mephits, pegasus, shadows, wights, xorn, arraneas, gargoyles, griffon, harpy, pixie, zombie wyvern, cloakers, genies, green hag (spell resistance and invisibility), hieacosphinx, manticores, rasts and ravids, spider eater, and wraith.
And thats just the MM1, assuming only CR5 encounters, even though the big fights are supposed to be above the players CR by 2 or 3 levels i think this list along with all the humanoids i left out show theres is plenty of ability just with the MM1 to challenge a flying wizard.
Dungeons are constructed in many cases, so theres really no reason for anyone to go to the hassle of hewing out huge chambers that go way above thier heads. In the modern world a 10 ft ceiling in a room is considered vaulted and a luxury in homes and apartments.
Adventuring outside is easy, anything with thick foresting, like forests or jungles has a natural "ceiling" of boughs that would entangle any flying character trying to buzz about wherever they want below it and provide good cover from anyone flying above it. Of course urban areas are full of buildings a character could easily duck into for cover against a flyer. Flying is really only uber on an open plain, desserts or mountains.
Theres nothing wrong with factor that you have to consider in encounters. Thats part of having any magic user in the party. Just like you have to take into account the clerics buff spells that can push a party way out line with their assumed power according to CR, or you have to take into account that players are gonna blow all their resources early and want to hole up and rest every few encounters and if you dont give them the chance then their assumed power by CR is going to be lower then expected.
Thats just part of designing encounters and adventures. And if the wizard can occasionally whip out his fly spell and kick some butt, oh well. Is that really so terrible that sometimes you let him be super and sometimes you throw enemies at him that make his favorite tactic useless or even makes him an easier target?
Vocenoctum
First Post
But, 4e HAS flight in combat. It's once per day (per power), and perhaps that ties into the other thread about the 15 min adventuring day, but...
From what I gather, folks had a problem with Fly because folks would buy a wand of fly (5X3X750, 11,250gp. 225gp a charge) and then spam it all the time to always be flying. This was such a problem that 4e made flight a once a day thing and moved any actual travel power to higher level.
This was NOT a problem that the design team recognized in 3.5, since the Warlock has non-stop flight.
So, it can avoid encounters (unless those encounters are important) and it can avoid terrain (but not in dungeons so much). In combat it's the same, but now you can only "dominate" combat 1/day rather than paying a gp fee.
Like I said, never having had this problem, it feels to me like the "I hate warforged because they don't eat, and sometimes I want to starve my players" type of deal.
