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Forked Thread: What is the difference between New Fantasy and Old Fantasy?

Corjay

First Post
Forked from: Forked Thread: What is the difference between Science Fiction and Fantasy?

I disagree. Fantasy in a more generic sense; literature sprinkled with the fantastic, has certainly existed for a long time.

Fantasy as a modern genre is indeed an outgrowth of sci-fi. Heavily tempered and hybridized with a "rediscovery" if you will of the more ancient literature and its suitability as source material for new works that would entertain modern audiences.

The distinction may be academic, but to my mind anyway, that's where Celebrim's definitions fail to convince me. They make no distinction between the fantastic in literature and Fantasy as a separate, defined, modern genre of literature. To me, the two things are quite different, although certainly literature studded with the fantastic was an important component and ancestor to modern fantasy as a genre, they are still two different things altogether.
And how do you distinguish Lord of the Rings from Aenid, The Illiad, The Odyssy, Orpheus, beowulf, the Chronicles of Gilgamesh, or the legends of Hercules? What powers? What philosophies? There is nothing that is being done in fantasy fiction today that wasn't already done in the stories of the ancient past.
 
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jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
Forked from: Forked Thread: What is the difference between Science Fiction and Fantasy?

And how do you distinguish Lord of the Rings from Aenid, The Illiad, The Odyssy, Orpheus, beowulf, the Chronicles of Gilgamesh, or the legends of Hercules? What powers? What philosophies? There is nothing that is being done in fantasy fiction today that wasn't already done in the stories of the ancient past.

Works like the Argonautica, Iliad, and Volsungasaga were originally presented as factual, if romantic, records of actual events that had transpired in Earth history. Several of the ancient works that you refer to are hailed as national epics to this day, and the ostensibly real people that they were based on as national heroes.

I don't think anybody has ever suggested that Dragon Lance or Lord of the Rings are anything other than pure fiction created from whole cloth. Contemporary fantasy was written, not to glorify actual historical events or elevate real people to the status of epic hero for generations to come but, rather, merely to entertain.
 

Corjay

First Post
That is simply comparing a highly superstitious people to a wishful people, not the differences between fictions or their philosophies. The writers certainly knew (I know for a fact that Homer knew) they were writing fiction. It doesn't matter what the recipients believed. It only matters what was written.
 

jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
That is simply comparing a highly superstitious people to a wishful people, not the differences between fictions or their philosophies. The writers certainly knew (I know for a fact that Homer knew) they were writing fiction. It doesn't matter what the recipients believed. It only matters what was written.

The difference that I meant to illustrate is that what you refer to as "Old Fantasy" invariably contains some historical fact or is based upon known historical figures. Even Sir John Mandeville's 'vegetable lamb' had some basis in fact (it is an allegorical representation of cotton). Homer's works contain notable, proven, references to actual historical places and events. And so on. The works were offered by the authors as actual accounts of real events or tales of real people, not pure fiction (regardless of what they actually were).

Contemporary fantasy fiction does not typically claim to be factual in nature, nor does is it typically marketed as being a retelling of actual, historical, events. Further, those works of contemporary fantasy that do claim such things, do not typically go to any great lengths to showcase real life geography, contemporary events, or contemporary personages within their pages. I am hard pressed to think of a Homeric poem or Germanic saga that does incorporate some (or all) of these things.

The writing techniques of the authors in question are quite different when given even the most cursory examination. The goals of the authors are also arguably very different. It is widely accepted by historians and literary scholars alike, for example, that the skalds of ancient Iceland were not writing fiction, but preserving national heritage. The same is true of the Native American oral tradition.

To dismiss all folkore and literary epics as pure fantasy with little or no value past entertainment does a great disservice, both to many countries and educated modern peoples.
 
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pawsplay

Hero
Something like the story of the Atlantis is exactly like a modern science-ficiton or fantasy story. Whereas the Labors of Hercules are more like the account of Moses, or the legend of Saint George.
 

jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock
Well, with the introduction of religious writ into the conversation, I think that you have sealed this thread's fate. I see flames in your future.
 

Corjay

First Post
The difference that I meant to illustrate is that what you refer to as "Old Fantasy" invariably contains some historical fact or is based upon known historical figures. Even Sir John Mandeville's 'vegetable lamb' had some basis in fact (it is an allegorical representation of cotton). Homer's works contain notable, proven, references to actual historical places and events. And so on. The works were offered by the authors as actual accounts of real events or tales of real people, not pure fiction (regardless of what they actually were).

Contemporary fantasy fiction does not typically claim to be factual in nature, nor does is it typically marketed as being a retelling of actual, historical, events. Further, those works of contemporary fantasy that do claim such things, do not typically go to any great lengths to showcase real life geography, contemporary events, or contemporary personages within their pages. I am hard pressed to think of a Homeric poem or Germanic saga that does incorporate some (or all) of these things.

The writing techniques of the authors in question are quite different when given even the most cursory examination. The goals of the authors are also arguably very different. It is widely accepted by historians and literary scholars alike, for example, that the skalds of ancient Iceland were not writing fiction, but preserving national heritage. The same is true of the Native American oral tradition.

To dismiss all folkore and literary epics as pure fantasy with little or no value past entertainment does a great disservice, both to many countries and educated modern peoples.
I could base a superhero off a real person and a real event, but that doesn't make the concept any less fantasy.
 

The most obvious point being an awareness by both the author and the audience in modern fiction that it is purely fantasy, while Homer, Virgil, the Beowulf poet, etc. actually believed the stuff they wrote was possible. When they were writing, they were writing heroic action fiction sorta like James Bond for their audience, not fantasy.

But that's more of an external than an internal difference, and so probably insufficient.

Then again, all modern fantasy authors, even Tolkien who was a dyed in the wool idealist and romantic, write fantasy with a modern point of view, and modern values, characters, plot structures, etc. suffuse modern fantasy and make it stand out from older "fantastic literature."

For all their similarities, Aragorn is no King Arthur or Odysseus or Beowulf, nor is he intended to be (for that matter, those same characters in more modern fantasy novels fare very differently than they have in the past) and characters like Frodo, Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser or even Driz'zt are completely without precedent in "pre-fantasy" literature.
 



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