Four Color Problems with Savage Worlds Supers (SPC2) - Solutions?

[WayneLigon]

We just started a four-color level game with Savage Worlds, using the revised Super Hero Companion and already we can see at least one major, fatal crack in it - the archtype of the super-strong dude is vastly underpowered compared with the ranged users. It's mainly the way the strength table works, where 2 points in Super-Attribute after a d12 simply gives you a +1 to the roll. This guarantees you a certain level of damage, but it cannot hope to compete with Attack.Ranged which for a mere 10 points gives you 6d6. Even if you start with a d12 Strength from using hindrances and such, you're capped at d12+7 due to the requirement of a max of 15 points in any one power at the 4-color level. The ranged dude meanwhile has tons of other options he can add long before he hits 15, in addition to the awesome advantage of 'rolling more dice'.

Yes, you can take Attack, Melee to add dice but the requirements of a tough brute means he's spent most of his points on Strength, Toughness, some Armor, etc. He doesn't have the points left. Meanwhile a same-point-level martial artist with d6 strength, Attack, Melee and the several modifiers than can be put on it can outperform the super-strength guy all day long. Getting extra attacks at no minuses is super-cheap for him, while the super-strength guy has to spend something like two-three feats just to get one extra attack at no minuses.

I've looked for 'fixes' online, including Savagepedia, and found nothing (or, oddly, only a few people that even admit that this is a problem). I can't even find anyone doing conversions of heroes, so we could at least get an idea of the 'reasonable' means to build certain types - the experience with the first SPC seems to have scared people away from doing supers with Savage Worlds.

I've half-thought-out a couple of fixes, such as returning Strength to being a 1-1 point cost (especially since other than lifting and damage, and like two skills, strength has no role in SW whatsoever), or changing the Strength die progression to something like d12, d12+1d4, d12+2d4, d12+2d6, something like that. Maybe let modifiers for attack, melee also be able to be applied to Strength.

Has anyone done "four-color"-level superheroes with Savage Worlds, using the Super Hero Companion Revised Edition? How did you (if you did) solve the point-and-usefullness discrepancy between the high-strength characters and everyone else?

 

[innerdude]

I've been playing Savage Worlds for about 5 years now, and I'm as big a fan of the system as you'll find anywhere on planet earth, but to be honest I just don't think SW is a great fit in general for the supers genre. And yes, I have the super powers companion and have read through it (though not for a while and not in much depth).

There's probably three genres I've never felt Savage Worlds worked particularly well for:

• Supers as a whole, though a low-powered, X-men-ish setting might work okay, but even then I think there are better systems for it.
• "Gritty" or "hard science" sci-fi.
• Hardcore "mystery" or "investigative" campaigns (at least without some very serious thought given to house rules / add-on rules to make it work).

In all seriousness, I'd take a hard, hard look at Mutants and Masterminds 3rd Edition. If I was ever going to do a true supers campaign (highly unlikely, but you never know), M&M would be my choice of system.

 

[amerigoV]

Have you posted over at Pinnacle's boards? They probably would be better able to address your thoughts. I have not run enough Supers with SW to comment.

 

[TheFailedSave]

I was a raging Savage Worlds fan starting when it went to explorer's edition. By the time the delux edition came out I had become aware of many of it's weaknesses.

It is really a pretty terrible set of rules for the super's genre. Even the new Supers companion book doesn't address the many problems it has for that purpose. Not only the problem that you mention, but also it turns into a clear example of a rocket tag game. If a blaster wins initiative, he wins the fight. Also, the points for powers system has never been particularly balanced and is abusable by mischievous plays such as myself.

For example: I made a nearly unhitable ninja who had a crazy heavy armor toughness in addition to killing every enemy he ever faced in a single hit. My group hasn't ever touched the supers companion since I made that character.

Savage Worlds can be a fun game for certain genres. The weird part is, PEG has decided to create companion books for genres that the game is ill suited for. I find horror and Supers to be quite difficult to manage in SW. Things like Firefly and Star Wars actually work pretty well. The best game I ever ran with it was actually set in the Traveller universe.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

I was a raging Savage Worlds fan starting when it went to explorer's edition. By the time the delux edition came out I had become aware of many of it's weaknesses.

It is really a pretty terrible set of rules for the super's genre. Even the new Supers companion book doesn't address the many problems it has for that purpose. Not only the problem that you mention, but also it turns into a clear example of a rocket tag game. If a blaster wins initiative, he wins the fight. Also, the points for powers system has never been particularly balanced and is abusable by mischievous plays such as myself.

For example: I made a nearly unhitable ninja who had a crazy heavy armor toughness in addition to killing every enemy he ever faced in a single hit. My group hasn't ever touched the supers companion since I made that character.

Savage Worlds can be a fun game for certain genres. The weird part is, PEG has decided to create companion books for genres that the game is ill suited for. I find horror and Supers to be quite difficult to manage in SW. Things like Firefly and Star Wars actually work pretty well. The best game I ever ran with it was actually set in the Traveller universe.

What exactly are the genres it's best suited for?

My introduction to the system was actually Necessary Evil.

 

[Zadmar]

We just started a four-color level game with Savage Worlds, using the revised Super Hero Companion and already we can see at least one major, fatal crack in it - the archtype of the super-strong dude is vastly underpowered compared with the ranged users. It's mainly the way the strength table works, where 2 points in Super-Attribute after a d12 simply gives you a +1 to the roll. This guarantees you a certain level of damage, but it cannot hope to compete with Attack.Ranged which for a mere 10 points gives you 6d6. Even if you start with a d12 Strength from using hindrances and such, you're capped at d12+7 due to the requirement of a max of 15 points in any one power at the 4-color level. The ranged dude meanwhile has tons of other options he can add long before he hits 15, in addition to the awesome advantage of 'rolling more dice'.

6d6 is an average of 25.2 damage.

The SPC2 includes a specific example of a character with d12+7 Strength, who "can lift up to 20 tons. If he picks up a tank (16 tons), he causes his Strength of d12+7, plus another d12+8 (or 2d12+15)."

2d12+15 is an average of 29.2 damage.

Of course that assumes there's a tank nearby...but in an urban environment there should at least be some vehicles you can hit people with, and even a car would inflict more damage than the blaster.

Yes, you can take Attack, Melee to add dice but the requirements of a tough brute means he's spent most of his points on Strength, Toughness, some Armor, etc. He doesn't have the points left.

Then you should reassign points from somewhere else, because both of the Attack powers are extremely strong - so strong, in fact, that I replaced them with a new Attack power in Savage Armoury.

Super Skill (Fighting) is the other thing you should look into. It's twice as expensive in SPC2 as it was in NE/SPC1, but it's still extremely good. One of the PCs in my NE group had Fighting d12+8, which he'd pump to d12+10 with Wild Attack, then make Called Shots to the eyes (+4 damage and ignore armour) and/or use the Rapid Attack maneuver (3 attacks, who cares about the -4 penalty when your Fighting skill is that high?).

Meanwhile a same-point-level martial artist with d6 strength, Attack, Melee and the several modifiers than can be put on it can outperform the super-strength guy all day long.

Yes, because he's using Attack. If you want to play a combat character, you really need to take one of the Attack powers.

 

[innerdude]

What exactly are the genres it's best suited for?

My introduction to the system was actually Necessary Evil.

My list of genres played and my overall experience with them:

• A Firefly / Serenity mini-Campaign (about 5 sessions) - 4.5 out of 5 stars. Savage Worlds is fantastic for fast-paced, episodic, semi-pulpy sci-fi. In thinking about it, in fact, if there were an easy way to describe Savage Worlds as a whole, I'd simply say "Joss Whedon." The general vibe and zeitgeist of Buffy / Angel / Firefly capture much of the way Savage Worlds plays for me.
• Modern military / tactical ops mini-campaign - 4 out of 5 stars. This was more a problem with the way I set up the campaign than anything with the system. I was still just trying to get my feet wet with GM-ing Savage at the time. Overall the "backbone" for this type of campaign is very solid.
• A moderately long-running (14 month) "traditional" fantasy campaign - 5 out of 5 stars. Savage Worlds is pretty freakin' brilliant for running fantasy, as long as you accept that it's "middle to mid-low fantasy." If you want "high" fantasy with epic magic, or really gritty fantasy you might be served better elsewhere. But for capturing the basic essence of running a "classic" D&D campaign between levels 2-9, Savage Worlds is far, far, far and away the best system I've ever used.
• Modern Zombie Apocalypse (6 months, currently on hiatus) - 5 out of 5 stars. I honestly can't imagine running a zombie apocalypse campaign in anything BUT Savage Worlds. SW is beyond perfect for the genre. The only other real contender I could see would be Fate, if you were trying to capture more of the Walking Dead style (more character interaction, less zombie shooting).
• Near-future sci-fi (Deus Ex universe with heavy doses of the Interface Zero 2.0 campaign setting) - 4.5 out of 5 stars. I've just started this one up, we're about 4 sessions in, but with some good use of the tech and hacking rules in IZ 2.0, and well-planned use of dramatic sequences, this is working out very, very well so far.

Beyond that, I haven't tried it yet but I'm fairly certain that Savage Worlds would excel at traditional "space opera" sci-fi (I think it would work brilliantly for Star Wars).

 

[TheFailedSave]

I can confirm that Savage Worlds works well for Space Opera such as Star Wars, Firefly, and even Traveller. I haved used it extensively for that genre. I have also run an anction heavy fantasy game that worked pretty darn well too.

The thing is, you have to accept Savage World's pulp action bias or you will be straining against the game the whole time you play. The majority of the rules, with a few exeptions, are biased for action scenes. This is what makes it difficult to use for horror. Zombies aren't very scary when your average player character has a 75% chance of pulling off a backflip stunt.

As for supers, it has issues with the inherent power level of the basic rules and an abusable power point system. I have tried two supers games that used Savage Worlds. Both were less than excellent.