Fourth Edition just feels... incomplete

[Raven Crowking]

This is something I certainly wouldn't ding 3e on, or 4e for that matter. The Encyclopedia Magica series included items culled from nearly 20 years (or so) of development in Dragon magazines, modules, supplements, and so on. Both 3e and 4e took a stab at redefining magic items in the new edition's terms. I would say that 3e DMG's magic item list compares reasonably favorably with the 1st edition DMG's.

There is a difference between scope (how broad a range there is) and sheer amount. The 20-year argument speaks well to the amount, but not to the scope.

As far as the 3e vs 1e magic item scope, I think it's been too long since you pulled out the 1e DMG (although without doing an item-by-item comparison, I could obviously be wrong!). In either event, if the game is "evolving", the goal of later editions should not be to compare "reasonably favorably" with earlier editions.

IMHO, of course.

RC

 

[Razuur]

I also think it feels incomplete...
I guess I miss the fluff. The 3.x book made you feel inside the game, it generated a better atmosphere...

The PHB looks like (-don't kill me!-)a guide to a videogame.

I not only won't kill you, I will agree with you.

Your assessment is sopt on. I was refraining feom any decision until I could read some in depth reviews and maybe even get my hands on the book.

To me, this feels like an arcade game. While there is nothing wrong with that, how do i play my Game of thrones medieval style heavy RP campaign? Simple... I don't - at least not with D&D. Now having seen the game, I can honestly say that I am glad the I made the choice to convert to True20.

I have spent many years with D&D, and it feel sad to finally part ways. I am going to miss it...

But if I am gonna play an arcade game... I turn on my XBOX 360. When I sit down at the table for the weekly session, I want to roleplay.

Razuur

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yep, like a nice, quiet, shat. *in the voice of Kenneth Mars*

I'm not sure if you are trying to be insulting or not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If you think my post was faulty, why not try responding to the substance of it rather than the existence of it? That way, there can be an actual dialogue.

RC

 

[Agamon]

I like the fact that the books give me a base with which to work. If I want to add official stuff from official books, I can, but I don't have to. If I want to make up my own stuff (which they made extrememly easy) I can do that, too.

I plan on makng my own magic items (and not even use the ones in the PHB). Those that don't want to, there's a book coming out full of magic items. But the game can still be played without doing either of these.

I also plan on making up my own monsters. This is so easy, it's not funny, but for those that don't want to, there will be books coming out for that too (Necro's ToH if you can't wait for MM2). But the game is playable without doing either.

I probably won't do much in power creation, that's an area I don't think should be meddled with a lot. I think there's enough in there to keep players happy. The amount of powers listed for each class is the reason there's less of everything else in the book. That said, I'm pretty sure the power books will give more choices to players that want more.

My point is, the system is complete and that's all that matters to me.

 

[The Little Raven]

I'd point you to the 1E books and say get a clue

Someone else might be rude, doesn't give you the right to be rude back. Don't post in this thread again.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm not ready to associate the "unfinished" feeling of 4e to WotC nefarious deeds. "Never attribute to malice if it can be attributed to incompetence", if you will. But that pretty much leaves you with "The 4e designers are incompetent".

If WotC is reading these threads and corrects some of the common complaints in future books I will forgive them. For example if the "Complete Arcane" dedicates a huge portion of the book to adding many of the 3e PHB spells as powers/rituals the wizard can cast I will be much happier. If however the book just contains more classes and fails to expand on powers existing classes... I'm done with 4e. Which is really too bad, because I like the mechanics, I just hate how thin it is.

I don't know if this helps you or not, but the latest information regarding new classes look like this:
- Swordmage will be part of the Forgotten Realms Player Guide.
- PHB 2 will introduce new classes (most likely Barbarian, Druid and Bard, plus possibly Psionic classes)
- The first big "splat book" equivalent is dedicated to the Martial Power Source, and will not contain new classes. (but new Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies)
- There might be some support in DDI related to classes, but I doubt that an entirely new class complete with new powers will be put there. I might be wrong though, and if I am, that would be a big selling point for DDI.

Following this trend, I predict this:
- New Classes (and Races) will be in the PHBs or in the Campaign Guides.
- Powers will be in the "Splat" equivalents.

 

[Eldragon]

I don't know if this helps you or not, but the latest information regarding new classes look like this:
- Swordmage will be part of the Forgotten Realms Player Guide.
- PHB 2 will introduce new classes (most likely Barbarian, Druid and Bard, plus possibly Psionic classes)
- The first big "splat book" equivalent is dedicated to the Martial Power Source, and will not contain new classes. (but new Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies)
- There might be some support in DDI related to classes, but I doubt that an entirely new class complete with new powers will be put there. I might be wrong though, and if I am, that would be a big selling point for DDI.

Following this trend, I predict this:
- New Classes (and Races) will be in the PHBs or in the Campaign Guides.
- Powers will be in the "Splat" equivalents.

Admittedly, I'm looking forward to the Swordmage class. The "fighter-mage" or "arcane defender" archetype has always been one of my favorite character concepts.

So it sounds like the splatbooks is what I really want. Give the existing classes more things to choose from. I've always supported the idea of "fewer classes, more options" versus lots of classes that provide those same options. All I ever used the 3e splatbooks for was feats and spells, so hopefully the 4e books end up just giving me the parts I want.

Its easy to house rule the parts of any RPG you don't like (e.g. IMC Tieflings have infernal ancestry) but its hard to house rule the content that is missing from 3e back into 4e

 

[Remathilis]

Do you mean all style, no substance?

No, meant it as I did. The game gives lots of space to the rules, not much to the fluff. This is almost glaring in the MM, where they don't even bother to give decent descriptions of the monster appearances.

 

[Banshee16]

The OGL was designed to promote competition; the GSL is designed to retard it. And, as you know, competition is the basis of viable evolution. To put it another way, WotC is trying to take their ball back, saying "If you don't play our way, you don't play."
RC

Does the creation of the GSL mean that companies can no longer produce 3.x material under the OGL? Or does the GSL only apply if you're planning on producing material compatible with 4E?

Banshee

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Does the creation of the GSL mean that companies can no longer produce 3.x material under the OGL? Or does the GSL only apply if you're planning on producing material compatible with 4E?

Banshee

The OGL is forever and 3.x can be designed for forever.

The GSL hasn't been released yet so we don't know the exact details yet. WotC has said the GSL prevents a company from producing OGL and GSL in the same product line (details on what constitutes product line yet publicly undefined). Once a company designes a product line for the GSL if they ever decide to produce OGL material for that line they will no longer be able to produce GSL material for that product line. As above the OGL is forever so that product line could continue OGL forever. This is the best we have until the GSL goes public on Friday.