Fourward Path

[AbdulAlhazred]

In the first AD&D game I ran the players would sometimes run their henchmen rather than their PCs, so there was a hint of troupe to that. But in OA, the focus was on the particular PCs - more character development focused, I would say, than our "classic" AD&D.

Yeah, now imagine your the DM of a game that has up to 100 semi-regular players associating into different parties on various nights, splitting, rejoining, running their henchmen or lesser PCs in lower level games, their high level guys on nights with the old guard, etc. That was apparently what it was like. Everything was laid out on timelines that handled when people went off on long-term story arcs, etc. Frequently players had their PCs hire out work to lesser groups (no time, gotta do spell research for the big adventure next month) and on and on.

Now, project that into the clan system of OA, and you have what I'm talking about. Yes, you could just play your PC and his family is 'background' which is cool and ties you into intrigue and whatever. But what if your main PCs little brother is a monk, and your cousin is a high level Samurai, and next you roll up your sister and she's a Wu Jen! Oh, and of course you don't just have henchmen, you have the family retainers, the samurai, bushi, ninjas, etc that are the associated allies, patrons, and clients of your family. Now the goal is family honor, family fortune, marrying into the imperial clan, etc! Its Gygax's concept on steroids, but with a rather different set of themes.

I agree about "replay": epic tier makes the gameworld unreplayable.

For me it's probably more about scope and theme. But may be I'm being too narrow in my conception of what DS involves? That said, is there enough content for 10 levels of "redeeming Athas"? In the past I've disagreed with AbdulAlhazred that there's not enough content to support 10 levels of Epic, but DS might be a case where I change my mind on that point!

Well, it depends on how far into the meta-plot and backstory and whatever of Athas you're willing to read and how much you extrapolate. I'm no Athas guru, but there's whole cycles of history before the 'Dark Sun', and many hints that conditions could change radically in theory. Apparently it was actions taken by human mages which brought things to their current state, so.... That could be as elaborate as you want.

Again though, you have to step out of 'Dark Sun' to get into that conceptual space. The action can be rooted in the dusty sands of the harsh desert, but eventually you're going to change everything and engage with forces that don't fit the genre, especially when you beat them (or whatever happens).

In the case of DS it seems like Epic has to pretty much 'break the world', though in other D&D sub-genre that might not need to be the case. A 'Blood Right' sort of concept could see the PCs simply rise to a godlike level where they contest with other equally powerful beings, sort of just a super powered kind of strategic adventuring.

 

[pemerton]

That was apparently what it was like.

<snip>

Now, project that into the clan system of OA, and you have what I'm talking about.

I can conceive of it, but I don't think I can imagine doing it, or making it work as a GM! Did you run OA in this sort of way?

 

[Garthanos]

In the case of DS it seems like Epic has to pretty much 'break the world'

I have seen DMs totally plan for that in campaigns that are not DS ... they want the high end campaign to change everything.

 

[Manbearcat]

Return of the Gorge!

Cue a John WIlliams theme!

 

[Manbearcat]

Both of these have tremendous potential for meaningful terrain challenges, beyond what one might find in "standard" D&D fare. I envision the former as a Skill Challenge, but the latter (so inventive!) gives me pause as to how to implement dramatically and effectively.

I would mechanize them in 4e in the following ways:

Sandstorm

1 Healing Surge loss to all along with a nested Skill Challenge as a result of an accrued failure in a greater generic "Crossing the Wastes" move (the 4e Dark Sun Skill Challenge equivalent to Undertake a Perilous Journey in DW). Probably a Level + 2 Complexity 1 (which is what I often go with for nested SCs). 4 successes before 3 failures for 1 success or 1 failure (and subsequent Surge loss and wherever the fiction should go after that).

Mirage

1 Healing Surge loss in an accrued failure in a greater generic "Crossing the Wastes" move (the 4e Dark Sun Skill Challenge equivalent to Undertake a Perilous Journey in DW). The heroes are attacked by a level + 2 Hazard Mirage:

Attack: Level +5 (2 levels above characters) vs. Will
Hit: The target is dominated (save ends). Second Failed Saving Throw: The target can no longer save against the domination effect; the effect can be removed only by forcibly removing the character from the Mirage.

A dominated creature throws itself to the sandy earth and begins shoveling "water" (sand) down its throat. If another creature attempts to remove the dominated creature from the Mirage, the dominated creatures spend its actions making a basic attack against that attacker (or move to do so, if it is not within range).

Opportunity Action:

Target: A Dominated creature ends its turn inside the Mirage boundary.
Attack: Level +5 (2 levels above characters) vs. Fort
Hit: Healing Surge equivalent damage and they are attacked by the Dark Sun day/night travel sickness if they don't have it or, if they do have it, they must pass an Endurance check or move down the track.

Countermeasures:

* A non-Dominated creature removes the Dominated PC from the 10 * 10 Mirage area.
* A non-Dominated creature administers a Hard DC Heal or Diplomacy check (must be adjacent) to a Dominated creature.

 

[Garthanos]

Any thoughts on the threads main question [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]

 

[Manbearcat]

Indeed, the DSCS does address travel in terms of the disease/condition track, with the introduction of Sun Sickness for daytime travel (Target is cured < Target loses 1 HS or HPs equal to surge value <> Target takes -2 penalty to all attacks/defenses > Target dies) and a simpler mechanic for nighttime travel (Endurance vs. Moderate DC or lose 1 HS). But this is an underdeveloped subsystem IMHO and could be expanded greatly, though I've yet to give thought as to how.

I would leverage this during Skill Challenges as generic failure mechanics; 1 Healing Surge lost and you're either attacked by the Disease if you don't have it or pass an Endurance check (if you do have it) to prevent moving down the track.

As for survival in a harsh desert environment (to put it mildly), the DSCS once again reduces this to a simple, abstracted mechanic: the Survival Day, at a cost of 5 gp/SD.



The DSCS goes on to note that an Athasian can survive on 1/2 gallon of water per day (i.e. 4 lbs / 2 kgs), so encumbrance limits impose another, albeit not truly meaningful, factor here.

I hope that "survival accounting" is just to mitigate the worst of it (eg if you don't spend 5 gp/SD, you suffer -2 to relevant checks or lose an extra HS when you would lose 1). If its to outright remove fallout from exposure etc, I would gut that like a fish and use my version above instead.)

 

[darkbard]

By the old gods, [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], it's good to see you back here! A nested challenge within a SC makes great sense for a sandstorm in the context you outline; and your ideas about how to handle a mirage, marrying fictional trope to game mechanic are, at risk of repetitive flattery, nothing short of inspired!

 

[Manbearcat]

[MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION]

To all those with empathy for the 4e design paradigm. How do you think 4e could have or should have been completed
AND how might it have progressed forward into a 5e that was loyal to that design we love.

I don't think that 4e was ever going to be given a shot to progress forward into 5e. I think the point of 5e (from the outset) was to put an end to D&D tribalism by burning (the heretical) 4e at the stake as an offering of peace...and the playtest was an effort to solicit instruction (by those hell bent on that outcome) on how best to perpetuate that end while maintaining a pretense of objectivity.

Brilliantly conceived and brilliantly executed.

As far as how I would have liked to have seen 4e evolve?

I would like to have seen a 4e evolution along the lines of Blades in the Dark:

- Sub in Progress Clocks (or opposing Clocks when applicable) for Skill Challenges. Scaled success and failure depending on evaluating codified circumstances of each action. Once a PC clock is filled, the outcome is a success (with all the failure accrued and the story/mechanical fallout/trajectory). If the opposing clock fills first, then something big and bad happens.

- Use Healing Surges like Blades uses Stress (luck and special reserve of fortitude). You can spend it to avoid/mitigate bad results or to push yourself to augment Action rolls.

- Marking your last Stress box leads to Trauma (eg Haunted, Unstable, etc..which is a permanent condition). 4 Trauma conditions and you're toast.

- Use Harm. Every time you go unconscious, you get fill in a Harm box (level 1-4 depending on things) and suffer some kind of debility until its resolved. If Harm 1 is filled up, you have to fill up Harm 2. If you fill up Harm 4...you're toast.

- Rejigger the 4e powers to interface with the above.

- Streamline the system massively but cutting a lot of the fat and just use very provocative, thematic elements which hook into setting/premise (but can be easily reskinned) in the way that Strike! does.

- Follow the Blades in the Dark scene structure of Free Play (Gather Information, Character Scenes, Choose Target/Plan, etc) > Score > Downtime

That looks good.

 

[Manbearcat]

By the old gods, [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION], it's good to see you back here! A nested challenge within a SC makes great sense for a sandstorm in the context you outline; and your ideas about how to handle a mirage, marrying fictional trope to game mechanic are, at risk of repetitive flattery, nothing short of inspired!

Are you actively running a Dark Sun game or planning on it?