Free-Form vs. Tactical Gaming

[Niccodaemus]

I think the issue, after long thought, is movement. Each issue seems to deal with movement somehow, as in, "I should have been able to do this before he moved that far!"

Here's an example the he came up with to stress his point. Consider a PC facing a bad guy 10 feet away. Then, place a little child right behind the PC. In a straight line, you end up with: Bad Guy, empty 5' square, PC, child.

The bad guy is trying to kill the child. The PC is protecting the child.

Roll initiative. Bad Guy wins.

The bad guy can actually move 30' around the PC's threatened area to attack the child from an angle in base to base contact without the PC getting a chance to attack him.

My player says this is idiotic, allowing the bad guy to move in that big circle around the PC to get to the child, when the PC would, in real life, should be able to simply take one step (a 5' step) to be able to protect the kid.

So, yeah, the problem is movement. I need to think how to fix this.

I see. I guess this is the weakness of gridded combat. We've never had an issue with such things. Just use common sense.

You could do movement first, than combat. Movement goes in order from the shortest to longest distance travelled. Movement rates are taken into consideration. (someone who moves twice the speed is counted as moving half the distance for purpose of order) Moves need to be declared before moves are made.

So... in this case the bad guys says "I am going around the fighter to attack the child", and points to square he is moving to. Fighter says "I am moving to intercept the bad guy", and points to square. Fighter moves... bad guy moves.

 

[Spatula]

I don't think the issue is movement. I'm thinking the problem is that your player sounds like a sore loser. Something doesn't go his way and he bitches and moans about realism or how things would be different in AD&D or whatever. He lost initiative - tell him to get over it, already.

The issue he's having is the nature of turn-based resolution. You go, then I go. It's unrealistic but it keeps things manageable. But he wants to be able to interrupt your turn and say, "you can't do that, I stop you." The only version of D&D that has that sort of thing in it is 4e with its interrupts, really. Unless he wins initiative in 3e and readies an action.

 

[howandwhy99]

I'm not sure how to run 3.x with less tactics other than to use a similar system like E6.

1E initiative was player initiated IIRC, but that may not necessarily be the way it was commonly run. Basically, when any of the players took actions in conflict with other creature's actions, either PC or NPC, then initiative was rolled.

This could be one person trying not to get hit (a default) and another person taking a swing at them. Or it could be a character pushing a boulder in one direction, while a second pushes the boulder in another, not even necessarily opposite.

 

[fireinthedust]

easily enough.

Most of my gaming has been with 3e, so it's a matter of how seamlessly you describe it. Yes, the guard you mentioned runs 60ft and makes an attack: moves 30 feet, then charges 30 plus the attack. It's fast, but apparently your spear guy wasn't ready with his spear-throw by the time the guard got there. Maybe he was about to launch it, or he got distracted.

You could argue circumstantial bonuses to initiative for your player, but if he's moving slowly, he's moving slowly.

Don't look at it like a grid.

 

[Loonook]

Honestly you can just eliminate this by using your own sense and mutual agreement. From the hostage situation to the movement of the guard . . . You could also make for ranged attacks being a line effect acting on the turn initiated with a speed factor. Players win initiative and the soear can travel its normal distance of fire per each x feet the player can move. The first target to move across the ranged item's current field of effect is the target. If a projectile is loosed and can make 200 feet in its increment and the target us miving in ab L shapeat 30 ft (4 forward and 2 right) in a room. The warrior moves his first 5 and the arrow moves 33. Secon moves 5, arrow hits him from 66 feet away. Attack is rolled deal damage.

It adds a lot to combat and I do not know whether it adds "Value" but it may be what you are looking for. Even so you would want to have either a smaller ft system for such abstraction OR some sort of challenge for when someone leaves their 5 ft space.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Water Bob]

easily enough.

Most of my gaming has been with 3e, so it's a matter of how seamlessly you describe it. Yes, the guard you mentioned runs 60ft and makes an attack: moves 30 feet, then charges 30 plus the attack. It's fast, but apparently your spear guy wasn't ready with his spear-throw by the time the guard got there. Maybe he was about to launch it, or he got distracted.

I tried explaining in that way. He doesn't buy (and I see is point, to an extent), that the spearman should be able to have a good chance of getting off his spear if he's ready for combat, exploring an old ruin where he expecting bad guys, and comes around a corner to see one.

We're looking at 6 seconds of time. The charging guard, 60 foot away, starts on second #1 and attacks around second #6.

The argument he makes is that the 6 seconds should be plenty of time to at least try to get his spear thrown. The way the game plays, he spearman has no chance at all if the guard wins initiative.

I told him that the game takes a cookie-cutter approach, using a one-size fists all rule to cover all situations. Sometimes, you find situations like this where believability is stretched a bit--believability is being stretched in the name of ease of gameplay.





It's not that I don't understand his point. I do. But, I like to run a RAW game. The rules are in B&W, and everybody knows them. House Rules tend to have unintended consequences down the road.

In spite of that, I'm considering an alteration to the combat round, or making a special combat maneuver using a version of the Ready Action. I'm not sure which.

As I said above, the issues seem to stem from movement--how a character in 3E can move so freaking far before his enemies get to react.

Honestly you can just eliminate this by using your own sense and mutual agreement.

That means disregarding the structured tactical combat rules in 3E and move to a free-form style of play.

That's not easily done with the 3E rules.

For example, you run into game-rule problems like this:

GM: You move into a room and see two goblins, holding small goblin shields. The goblins look up, smirk, and draw their short swords.

Initiative is thrown. The PC wins initiative.

You: I close to attack the closest goblin.

GM: You move to attack. Roll your swing. The goblin doesn't use his shield for protection. You miss. Now, that goblin attacks you twice, using a Full action, attacking with his short sword and banging you with his shield. The other other goblin moves to flank, attacking last with the flank bonus.





On the surface, there seems to be no problem with that, right? We've violated a 3E rule playing it that way. What should have happened is that when the PC and the goblins came into line-of-sight of each other, initiative should have been thrown then before the goblins drew their weapons.

By the 3E rules, the PC won initiative, closed to attack the goblin, and missed his attack. Goblin #1....family emergency.

Gotta go.

Finish later.

 

[northspot]

I don't really see the issue...it seems it all "When" you decide to roll initiative. In most groups I could hear the player complaining about the tactical gaming scenario, and rightly so...they have there spear ready, they should have had a surprise round at the very least.

But even is a game like 4E...essentially the ultimate in tactical gaming...you can opt to replace rules with DM digression...you are the final arbitrator. In the game I run I find logic and realism to be much more enjoyable for all, then the typical rules.

So your scenario would sound more like thie:

DM: As you round the corner you see a guard 60' away that seems to notice you, what do you do?

Player: I throw my spear...(roll) doh, I missed...I'll draw my sword and engage.

DM: Ok, he also began charging and deftly dodges your spear as he's closing the gap. You two run at each other, roll init...(rolling)...guard wins, while you were hurling your spear, he got a slight jump on you, so you engage about 20 feet away from you, where he gets the charging advantage, he swings hitting you for 7 dmg.

that type of rationale works best in almost any game, you handle what you can with common sense, and resort to game mechanics when the situation doesn't really call for much intervention...Though I find 4e combat just as enjoyable as 3e or pathfinder, when you use common sense to govern things.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I think the issue, after long thought, is movement. Each issue seems to deal with movement somehow, as in, "I should have been able to do this before he moved that far!"

I tried explaining in that way. He doesn't buy (and I see is point, to an extent), that the spearman should be able to have a good chance of getting off his spear if he's ready for combat, exploring an old ruin where he expecting bad guys, and comes around a corner to see one.

We're looking at 6 seconds of time. The charging guard, 60 foot away, starts on second #1 and attacks around second #6.

The argument he makes is that the 6 seconds should be plenty of time to at least try to get his spear thrown. The way the game plays, he spearman has no chance at all if the guard wins initiative.

I can suggest three different "fixes" for your specific game (a Conan game with barbarian PCs).

1) Cut all rounds down to one move or standard action. If someone is 30 feet away, they can move up to you before you can throw your spear. If someone is 60 feet away, they can't.

2) Treat all first rounds of combat as "surprise" rounds, even if everyone is aware. In the first round, everyone gets one action. It doesn't prevent "he moves around the kid you're protecting and attacks" problem, though, where the first suggestion does.

3) Allow readied actions out of combat. If he has his javelin out, let him say "I'm ready to throw my javelin against anything that seems hostile" while walking around the caves. It shouldn't work for a long time (like on night watch), but in high tension situations, this is exactly what people do. Ever walked around holding a weapon at the ready because you thought you might need to swing it in a hurry? It's always in a high tension scenario, such as exploring somewhere you feel threatened (like your dark home if you heard a noise, or a camp fire area after you hear a few twig snaps).

I'd combine 1 & 3, personally. Allow out-of-combat readied actions, as well as cutting rounds down to one action per round. That guy can move around to get in position to attack that child. On my turn, I'll five foot step into the child's square (pushing him behind me), and take a swing at the guy. On the child's turn, he'll five foot step behind me. Who's going to win this fight?

It might have some issues once you branch away from just barbarian PCs, though. I can't say for sure. Still, that's my view on the subject. As always, play what you like

 

[underfoot007ct]

I can suggest three different "fixes" for your specific game (a Conan game with barbarian PCs).

1) Cut all rounds down to one move or standard action. If someone is 30 feet away, they can move up to you before you can throw your spear. If someone is 60 feet away, they can't.

2) Treat all first rounds of combat as "surprise" rounds, even if everyone is aware. In the first round, everyone gets one action. It doesn't prevent "he moves around the kid you're protecting and attacks" problem, though, where the first suggestion does.

3) Allow readied actions out of combat. If he has his javelin out, let him say "I'm ready to throw my javelin against anything that seems hostile" while walking around the caves. It shouldn't work for a long time (like on night watch), but in high tension situations, this is exactly what people do. Ever walked around holding a weapon at the ready because you thought you might need to swing it in a hurry? It's always in a high tension scenario, such as exploring somewhere you feel threatened (like your dark home if you heard a noise, or a camp fire area after you hear a few twig snaps).

I'd combine 1 & 3, personally. Allow out-of-combat readied actions, as well as cutting rounds down to one action per round. That guy can move around to get in position to attack that child. On my turn, I'll five foot step into the child's square (pushing him behind me), and take a swing at the guy. On the child's turn, he'll five foot step behind me. Who's going to win this fight?

It might have some issues once you branch away from just barbarian PCs, though. I can't say for sure. Still, that's my view on the subject. As always, play what you like

If you "Allow readied actions out of combat", opens a can of worms. Then why would the Goblin not have a readied action to yell for aid, & throw his spear, then run away for cover. How do you decide which readied action happens first? Both at the same time. What if there are Six Goblins ALL with a readied action to throw a javlin then draw a sword, then poor PC who rounds the corner, might get to throw his spear, yet now looks like a bloody pincushion.

 

[JamesonCourage]

If you "Allow readied actions out of combat", opens a can of worms. Then why would the Goblin not have a readied action to yell for aid, & throw his spear, then run away for cover.

Readied actions would be one action. In my RPG, readying a free action takes a move action to ready. So, he could yell for help, throw his spear, or run for cover, but not all three before initiative was rolled.

How do you decide which readied action happens first? Both at the same time.

I'd say it comes down to a surprise round in which both sides are aware. Roll initiative, but each side only gets one action, and it must be there readied action (or they can pass).

What if there are Six Goblins ALL with a readied action to throw a javlin then draw a sword, then poor PC who rounds the corner, might get to throw his spear, yet now looks like a bloody pincushion.

Yeah, he might die when they all throw their javelins (but they couldn't then draw their swords as part of the ready). Then again, if the GM (Water Bob) and his player want something more realistic, then there we go. As always, play what you like