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Free-Form vs. Tactical Gaming

Loonook

First Post
That means disregarding the structured tactical combat rules in 3E and move to a free-form style of play.

That's not easily done with the 3E rules.

.

I really must be playing d20 wrong then :(. I mean, in my Modern, D&D, and Pathfinder games this happens all the time. I know, it seems strange to ignore rules you don't like... But I bet you ignore 10% of the rules at minimum from any setting you use... Or you may be an organic version of Bioware's engine from Baldur's Gate :D.

Also, if you're looking for reality... Why not address my point?

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

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northspot

First Post
I also think you need to apply some realism to combat...Other wise you get the scenarios like the ones people have described here. My favorite paradoxical scenario is, the baseball diamond with three characters and two monsters, one monster at 1st and 3rd and one character at 2nd, but two at home.

The round begins, one of the guys at home moves 30 feet, then charges 30 feet to the monster at 1st, swinging at them. The monster then moves toward the guy at 2nd, provoking an AoO, and charges...moving another 60 feet...this keeps going with the monster at 3rd charging the guy at home and the guy at home retreating to 1st.

So, in this scenario, you can seen that by viewing the attacks as passing a baton, you essentially had the baton travel, 60 to 1st, then 60 to and, then 3rd, and home, and finally to 1st...300 feet in 6 seconds. That is faster than an Olympic runner, and these guys are likely armored (no move penalty) with some other equipment.

I think the easiest way to handle this paradox, by injecting realism, by do a quick "go around" asking everyone in order of init what they are doing, followed by the game mechanics and actual movement and attacking.

In practice this results in creatures already dead having attacks wasted on them, because the guy that went right before them dropped them, attacks being wasted on creatures that fled the scene faster than the attack could get to them...but that's more realistic anyway. On top of this it adds more chaos into combat and allows creatures to do a little more with less, so fights can be easier in difficulty, because the added confusion and wasted actions to "be sure" essentially all happen simultaneous.

This has the added benefit of removing the dominant players ultimately coordinating the entire battle, playing everyone's guy...since without knowing the result it makes it difficult to optimize a strategy...Combat also typically go faster, as wasted action don't often need resolution, or mechanics can be all resulted quickly once everything is known.

The DM still has to "apply discretion", since like in the baseball diamond example, the net result of that would be either creatures converging toward the center with no one getting an AoO as well, or trying to get to first base...it really depends on how the last guy to act declared his action...whether they following the original companion at home base, or they literally wanted to move to 1st base.
 

I'm not sure that 1e was any more "realistic" at modelling combat; you (or your player) seem to be picking out a particular artifice of 3.X and citing it as "unrealistic" when, in fact, 1e could be guilty of much more egregious violations of verisimilitude.

Let's say that (in 1e) your opponent wins 3 surprise segments and subsequently gains initiative. Your opponent has a longbow. What then?

P. 62 of the 1e DMG is ambiguous, but at the very least your opponent will shoot 3 arrows at you before you can lob your javelin. 18 seconds of "real time" have elapsed in the surprise segments.

For some reason, people are under the apprehension that it is more acceptable to use common sense over RAW in editions prior to 3.0 than it is in later editions.

I guess my question is why?
 
Last edited:

Loonook

First Post
I'm not sure that 1e was any more "realistic" at modelling combat; you (or your player) seem to be picking out a particular artifice of 3.X and citing it as "unrealistic" when, in fact, 1e could be guilty of much more egregious violations of verisimilitude.

Let's say that (in 1e) your opponent wins 3 surprise segments and subsequently gains initiative. Your opponent has a longbow. What then?

P. 62 of the 1e DMG is ambiguous, but at the very least your opponent will shoot 3 arrows at you before you can lob your javelin. 18 seconds of "real time" have elapsed in the surprise segments.

For some reason, people are under the apprehension that it is more acceptable to use common sense over RAW in editions prior to 3.0 than it is in later editions.

I guess my question is why?

Well, I think we could go with more arrows than that...

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI]Archery - Fast Shooting (Murmansk) - YouTube[/ame]

All near center mass. Though I understand your argument, the rules behind attacks in combat are very, very, VERY skewed for balance. If you're going to be angry about segments, I get to be angry with those 'slow' weapons.

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

Loonook said:
All near center mass. Though I understand your argument, the rules behind attacks in combat are very, very, VERY skewed for balance. If you're going to be angry about segments, I get to be angry with those 'slow' weapons.

Well, she's obviously a 20th-level fighter with a +1 speed composite shortbow and the Improved Rapid Shot feat.

I'm just saying that it's all goofy, 1e no less than 3e, and it's really a case of sour grapes from the player cited by the OP.

She's also cute.
 

underfoot007ct

First Post
Free-Form vs. Tactical Gaming , are different styles of gaming, both equally valid styles of play. But why does Free-Form mean you must omit init. Why not just roll init or roll surprise ?



 

Loonook

First Post
Well, she's obviously a 20th-level fighter with a +1 speed composite shortbow and the Improved Rapid Shot feat.

I'm just saying that it's all goofy, 1e no less than 3e, and it's really a case of sour grapes from the player cited by the OP.

She's also cute.

Agreed on all counts :). I honestly think that we should look towards a better method for combat, something where we could mimic a bit better the deadliness of combat at all levels, and that has a bit better movement rules. I like the idea of a 5' move, but I believe we really should look into shortening the round and making more attacks available (along with more movement options such as run, prone, etc.)

Slainte,

-Loonook.
 

northspot

First Post
I'm not sure that 1e was any more "realistic" at modelling combat; you (or your player) seem to be picking out a particular artifice of 3.X and citing it as "unrealistic" when, in fact, 1e could be guilty of much more egregious violations of verisimilitude.

Let's say that (in 1e) your opponent wins 3 surprise segments and subsequently gains initiative. Your opponent has a longbow. What then?

P. 62 of the 1e DMG is ambiguous, but at the very least your opponent will shoot 3 arrows at you before you can lob your javelin. 18 seconds of "real time" have elapsed in the surprise segments.

For some reason, people are under the apprehension that it is more acceptable to use common sense over RAW in editions prior to 3.0 than it is in later editions.

I guess my question is why?

I'm saying no matter the game or system "Common Sense" goes further than rules do...The rules, including stats and mechanics are essentially conflict resolution or ways of determining success of an action.

I'm simply saying that the DM is essentially a referee, so you may as well use them. In my first post here I simply stated an easy way to resolve the issue he demonstrated...by delaying the initiative roll to when the two were actually in base to base combat the issue he had is resolved.

In my second post, I gave one of the issues I have with "Tactical System" when played to the letter...there's nothing wrong with the baseball diamond scenario that I laid out even if you play it by the book...its the stepping back and seeing that all that happened in 6 seconds that's the issue, but this doesn't matter.

My stating what everyone is doing before results are calculated simply is an attempt at a solution to other problems that creep up in various game systems combat. This solution is a system neutral solution, that as a side effect does put common sense into the battle, and really collapses the round into one chaotic simultaneous set of actions (which if your going for that feel it is an easy way to achieve it)...where thing are still resolved in the order of initiative, but the results of the previous action don't change what your character attempted to perform in the round.

I'm not saying 1st ed is more or less realistic than 4ed...I typically DM, and have found that using this the "stated action" approach increases speed, not only round by round, but over all duration as well, and for most situations the effect is not too drastic to the typical turn based tactical approach...and if their is an argument, then at least people continue to apply basic logic rather than rushing to the rules for resolution...The DM remains the final arbitrator and the main goal is to have fun.
 

northspot

First Post
She may have been shooting those arrow fast, but I blanket in more easier to hit than a charging orc...plus not one arrow pierced the blanket, so I think we can agree that maybe the draw strength of a bow is what gives them more realistic rate of fire. I know I'd rather shoot one arrow that penetrates a creatures armor than 10 that are deflected by the wizards robes.
 

I'm saying no matter the game or system "Common Sense" goes further than rules do...The rules, including stats and mechanics are essentially conflict resolution or ways of determining success of an action.

I agree absolutely. But it is also a phenomenon of 3.0 - 4.5 that many referees feel much more beholden to RAW than previously - at least in my experience. And I still don't understand why they feel the need to bow before some objective "metric" as though it might somehow validate the execution of their game, when previously, it did not.

I'm talking about referees who, previously, had no scruples about liberally interpreting rules to serve their needs, and now obey rules when gaming.

Perhaps the problem is that the rules became too clear. This was never a problem with 1e.
 

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