Frenzied Berserker: should I worry ?

[hong]

You, as a DM, should not be afraid one bit. You know how there's that saying "There's always somebody bigger"? You're everybody - by default, you've got access to something that will challenge the party, FB or no. It's just a matter of finding the balance between challenging the FB and at the same time not utterly obliterating the rest of the group. But hey, that's what DMing is all about anyway, so no worries.

Well, gee, that was enlightening.

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion, we find that letting a 20th level guy adventure with a 1st level one is perfectly fine, because hey, finding the balance between challenging the one guy while not obliterating the other is what DMing is all about.

The art in DMing is how one builds these challenges, and what threshold to set beyond which characters are disallowed because finding challenges for them starts becoming infeasible for whatever reason. Yes, all character concepts are possible. Not all are practical.

No, the people who should be worried are the other players. A Frenzied Berzerker is a ticking bomb. Eventually it's going to go off - and as a DM, let it. Don't pull any punches or let the player try to squirm out of* what is supposed to be one of the primary drawbacks of the PrC. If he wants to ride the fast train, he has to pay the ticket price.

You misspelled "everyone else has to pay the ticket price". Hope this helps!

 

[Sejs]

Well, gee, that was enlightening.

What can I say? I'm here to help.

Taking this argument to its logical conclusion, we find that letting a 20th level guy adventure with a 1st level one is perfectly fine, because hey, finding the balance between challenging the one guy while not obliterating the other is what DMing is all about.

Apples and oranges, though both are still fruit. Is it possible to challenge a group more or less evenly, when they're all around the same character level even though one of them is a combat monster? Yeah, I'd say it is. As for the logical conclusion, who cares? 1st level with a 20th level? Sure. Blind autistic quadriplegic kobold with a divine rank 19 god? Heck, why not? It doesn't matter because it's not the issue being discussed. The issue being discussed would be closer to if a rank 17 god of war can chill with a rank 16 god of basket-weaving.

The art in DMing is how one builds these challenges, and what threshold to set beyond which characters are disallowed because finding challenges for them starts becoming infeasible for whatever reason. Yes, all character concepts are possible. Not all are practical.

I agree with you 100%.

You misspelled "everyone else has to pay the ticket price". Hope this helps!

Everyone else is the ticket price.

 

[hong]

Apples and oranges, though both are still fruit. Is it possible to challenge a group more or less evenly, when they're all around the same character level even though one of them is a combat monster? Yeah, I'd say it is.

Anything is "possible". Some things are more feasible than others.

As for the logical conclusion, who cares? 1st level with a 20th level? Sure. Blind autistic quadriplegic kobold with a divine rank 19 god? Heck, why not? It doesn't matter because it's not the issue being discussed. The issue being discussed would be closer to if a rank 17 god of war can chill with a rank 16 god of basket-weaving.

And thus do we come to the meat of the discussion. What causes you to believe that a frenzied berserker is not so broken as to cause major problems for an ongoing campaign?

Everyone else is the ticket price.

I think I shall enter that in the next "great moments in game design philosophy" competition.

 

[Romnipotent]

I've played with and as a Frenzied Berserker. Its simple, they become a killing machine. The party needs a group of escape plans. We had flight and hiding, sometimes we'd float 25ft away, to keep him angry. One note, dont let them have the Berserking Sword. Thats just an eternal world of pain.

There is always the cavalier, a one trick pony, just as much hurt, but hey.

 

[Grishnak]

I've played this prestige class as a minotaur barbarian/frenzied berserker. The damage dealt was unbelievable and the party didnt really have a great deal to deal with the frenzy, it resulted in my char being killed via the use of 2 player spells 1st was confusion to attempt to stop me attacking the others and the 2nd char cast slime wave to try and deal with the monsters but in my confused state I kept walking through the slime wave where eventually my rage ended -257 hp's I pretty much looked like toxic man in robocop but I took a good bulk of the mobs down with me. I loved the sheer destruction but it could be hard on other players who can be killed in a full attack round vs me. At the end of the day if the other members know what prc you're playing and they can prepare the relevent spells and he shouldn't cause to much problems for the group. Just think of him of a walking breathing damage machne!

 

[Ron]

I haven't seem the newer version, but I read the one written in Masters of the Wild. A while ago, when we were playing an unusually long dungeon crawl, one of the players suggested that he was going to take this Prestige Class. Immediately, another player ask him to not take it, else his character was going to kill the berserker. After a few explanations, it became obvious that nobody was going to defend the first player, who gave up.

This class maybe adequate to solo playing, but not in a normal game as it argue against cooperation between players (one of the foundations of roleplaying), or, more properly, against living in society. I don't like classes like this that stimulates irresponsible actions. Still, I would let the player go, after lecturing him I would not make accommodations in my game for his character behavior, which shouldn't live for long after taking innocent blood.

 

[iblis]

?

I haven't picked up Complete Warrior yet (though I'm pretty sure I will).

How bad is this Frenzied Berserker? I mean, if you can let out just a tidbit, like say the worst feature they have.

 

[Eremite]

(snip) How bad is this Frenzied Berserker? I mean, if you can let out just a tidbit, like say the worst feature they have.

The problem largely comes from a combination of the frenzy ability (similar to rage but if all the enemies are dropped then friends can become valid targets) with the "deathless frenzy" ability that they get at 4th level.

Deathless frenzy prevents the FB from dying from hit point damage while the FB is in its state of frenzy. As you can imagine, an unlimited hit point damage machine that attacks his own party is a slightly controversial concept....

 

[iblis]

The problem largely comes from a combination of the frenzy ability (similar to rage but if all the enemies are dropped then friends can become valid targets) with the "deathless frenzy" ability that they get at 4th level.

Deathless frenzy prevents the FB from dying from hit point damage while the FB is in its state of frenzy. As you can imagine, an unlimited hit point damage machine that attacks his own party is a slightly controversial concept....

Ack! Hence the poll; I see.

Yeesh, what were they thinking?

 

[Arc]

I played a frenzied berserker for a few months, and if properly designed, it's disgustingly overpowered. I'll admit, I had the advantage of using Dragon 310 alternate fighter classes (Note to DM's: Never allow this. Kensai is the most broken class for creating a character. Ever). Even so, I was taking out entire encounters 2 or 3 crs higher than the party level without breaking a sweat (not to mention occasionally creaming a fellow party member in a single hit). 6 attacks (kensai is broken), with the first 4 at +33, all doing 2d6+32 (before power attack) can basically turn an entire encounter into a pulpy mess, given decent rolls and possibly a lucky critical.

The main problem with frenzied berserker, as far as I see it, is that it's a tradeoff of roleplaying costs with mechanical advantages. If the party is willing and capable to accept the occasional loss, and has preparations for the frenzy (flying, invisibility, investing in a cloak of resistance for the FB, etc.), a well designed FB can take the place of an entire party. Think of it this way: a frenzied berserker is a nuclear reaction; properly controlled, it's incredibly effective; poorly controlled, it's a recipe for disaster of epic proportions.

Just ask demiurge sometime for the stories. He turned my FB into a NPC after we decided to retire him, and had the party running halfway across the continent to avoid bumping into him. This was after defeating a few epic NPCs. The FB, as a side note, was only 15th level.