From 4E to GURPS: D&D and Simulationism

[underthumb]

I've read a number of threads pertaining to dissatisfaction with D&D 4e's treatment of HP, powers, and the like. The general thrust of the criticism is that many of the mechanics of 4e do violence to one's intuitions about how a given effect would manifest in the game world (e.g., HP as non-physical injury, enemies being pulled near you...somehow...via "Come and Get It", etc.). I share these sentiments, but I wonder whether those who are presently dissatisfied are playing the wrong game entirely. I wonder whether they should try GURPS 4e.

I've been a D&D player for decades, and it's only in the last year or two that I've picked up GURPS. While you can read plenty about GURPS elsewhere (and the starter rules are free), I think a number of complaints about 4e are expertly addressed by GURPS, rather than by D&D 3e.

For instance:

GURPS starts by trying to model what would happen in mundane reality. Thus all of its baseline rules exist to generate believable, realistic interactions within this reality. GURPS provides rules to completely bypass these expectations and use more cinematic rules (not to mention magic) but the point is you can always fall back on “what would likely occur in real life”. Should you choose to use the basic, “realistic” rule set, it means (among other things):

-Losing HP always represents some kind of physical injury, HP is mostly determined by strength, and HP can never go much higher than strength. This means that normal humans can be killed by just a few hits. GURPS Combat, like real world combat, becomes a matter of avoiding injury, rather than soaking it up.

-In combat, there are a collection of maneuvers that allow you to precisely specify how you will attack (or defend), in a way that is highly granular. So rather than simply “narrating” how some combat interaction happened, you can literally choose to lunge forward towards an enemy, land on one knee, and stab for his groin. There are specific rules for each of these maneuvers (see GURPS Martial Arts) allowing you to specify a complex set of actions for dealing with your foes, including feints, beats, ruses, called shots, disarms, acrobatic moves, etc. GURPS is also careful to note which actions are and are not “realistic” in terms of whether highly skilled humans can actually perform them. You decide whether you want to integrate them into your campaign.

Anyhow, these are just two examples. Have any of those who are dissatisfied with D&D 4e tried playing a fantasy game with GURPS 4e? If so, what were your experiences?

For the record, I’m presently GMing a Forgotten Realms game using the GURPS rule set.

 

[WizarDru]

Anyhow, these are just two examples. Have any of those who are dissatisfied with D&D 4e tried playing a fantasy game with GURPS 4e? If so, what were your experiences?

For the record, I’m presently GMing a Forgotten Realms game using the GURPS rule set.

I left AD&D to move to GURPS, which was my gaming system of choice for nearly fifteen years before D&D 3e brought me back. While I haven't moved to GURPS 4e, I have browsed it. I think it's a great system for some things and a terrible system for some others. As a replacement for D&D? Well, that depends on the players and the game style, mostly.

GURPS is great for something like George R. R. Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series...but terrible for something like Elric or The Belgariad. D&D has always been high adventure, while GURPS is much more suited to grittier fantasy. It can do high fantasy, but it has different weaknesses...which may mean a lot or little based on an individual group's tastes. D&D 4e moves solidly into the high-pulp gamist realm, while GURPS is smack dab in the magic-realism simulationist realm.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I am very familliar with GURPS 3E and I have the 4E books. I think its a wonderful system and great for roleplaying in different genres.

Its not D&D. GURPS can do fantasy very well but with a very different feel. GURPS combat is richly detailed, more simulationist than abstract, and because of these factors its overkill for simple dungeon exploration style play. If I am craving detailed crunchy combat, then GURPS is the first system I think about.

I lke older D&D systems for both thier abstraction and simplicity. Combat can be resolved swiftly with or without a map or minis. The lesser degree of modifiers and "fiddly bits" help keep the action easy to resolve as part of the roleplaying experience rather than as a separate tactical mini game.

Thats the one problem I have with 3E/4E D&D and GURPS. All of these systems feature so many modifiers and options that combat takes you right out of the game world and straight to tactical situation. That doesn't make these systems bad or anything, just not what I really want out of a D&D style combat system.

 

[Herobizkit]

I left the reams of AD&D2 for GURPS for a while. I really enjoyed the free-form ability to create any genre of game using the same rules. Palladium tried, and the same issues that occurred with Palladium occurred with GURPS, and occured with 3.x product glut - too many alternate rules and options that weren't measured against onoe another for "balance".

Normally, I'm an advocate against the concept of balance... the DM's job is to find balance in the rules and present his game and vision using said rules... but GURPS makes more too much prepwork for little return. Sure, there are shortcuts, as in all games, but for the most part, the prep time was too much for me as a GM.

As a Player, I started my GURPS experience in a low-fantasy game. It was by far and away the polar opposite of my D&D experience to date. I tried to re-create a Bard-type character and ended up with a half-elf who got bossed around and assumed too much. Hit locations, weapons snapping when hitting larger weapons, one-hit kills no matter how good you are, "slow" magic (in GURPS, each round is 1 second long and many spells have to be "charged" for up to 3 seconds to reach maximum efficiency) and an overall too-realistic and un-heroic feel to the game.

When 3e was released, I had abandoned GURPS for an easier, self-contained ruleset that seemed more heroic and familair to me.

As for 4e, I have yet to read any of the rulebooks.

IMXP, GURPS is a far better rule set to use with any genre EXCEPT Heroic Fantasy. But in truth, you get out of GURPS what you put into it and then some, so take that into consideration. If they re-release (or have included) the Rules Compendium 1 and 2 for GURPS 4e, get 'em... they're just like the 3e Unearthed Arcana and DMG2, respectively.

 

[underthumb]

Thats the one problem I have with 3E/4E D&D and GURPS. All of these systems feature so many modifiers and options that combat takes you right out of the game world and straight to tactical situation. That doesn't make these systems bad or anything, just not what I really want out of a D&D style combat system.

Hmmm. Well, GURPS 4e has GURPS Lite, which is pretty damn simplified, in addition to GURPS Ultra Lite. These are officially supported ways of playing with maximum abstraction and speed, and there's no requirement of using miniatures.

 

[slwoyach]

I've actually wanted to try GURPS for years, but finding a group is far more difficult than finding a DND group. One problem I do have with GURPS is it seems there just aren't enough character points to build a well rounded character. Every time I try to build a character, there just aren't enough points.

 

[underthumb]

GURPS is great for something like George R. R. Martin's "Song of Ice and Fire" series...but terrible for something like Elric or The Belgariad. D&D has always been high adventure, while GURPS is much more suited to grittier fantasy. It can do high fantasy, but it has different weaknesses...which may mean a lot or little based on an individual group's tastes. D&D 4e moves solidly into the high-pulp gamist realm, while GURPS is smack dab in the magic-realism simulationist realm.

Can you elaborate on where you see it has weaknesses in dealing with high fantasy? It seems like everything is there if you want to build D&D-style adventures with cinematic combat and warriors absorbing huge amounts of damage (e.g., ablative damage resistance, Luck or Ultra Luck, spending character points on creating automatic successes, etc.).

 

[underthumb]

I've actually wanted to try GURPS for years, but finding a group is far more difficult than finding a DND group. One problem I do have with GURPS is it seems there just aren't enough character points to build a well rounded character. Every time I try to build a character, there just aren't enough points.

Well, the GM sets the point value for starting characters. So if there aren't enough points, that has to do with the type of campaign you're playing, not with GURPS in particular. Super Hero games, for instance, regularly feature PCs with over 1000 points.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I've actually wanted to try GURPS for years, but finding a group is far more difficult than finding a DND group. One problem I do have with GURPS is it seems there just aren't enough character points to build a well rounded character. Every time I try to build a character, there just aren't enough points.

I think GURPS could get a little more traction if there were a 3rd party support system that could publish adventures and other support material. SJ games should let freelancers submit adventures and sell the good ones as pdfs at least. Even when thier WW II and Traveller lines were getting a steady stream of supplements there was little to no adventure support. Fantasy? Forget it.

BTW no matter what the campaign or point total is, there are never "enough" points.

 

[pawsplay]

GURPS can provide a far superior Elric experience than any version of D&D ever published. It can also run traditional dungeon-run adventures beautifully, grittier fantasy, or more epic, romantic stuff, too. It is nonetheless not D&D. If GURPS characters aren't powerful enough on X points, add more points. The idea that GURPS characters are too weak is ridiculous; they are as strong as the GM allows.

GURPS tends toward blow-by-blow simulation, but that is not the main goal. Just as with any other game, the goal is to provide a resolution when you ask the game a question. GURPS combat can be dialed to a very abstract level; using the basic combat rules, simple armor, and no hit locations, you can recreate D&D combat almost note for note. You can also turn GURPS combat into something else by giving PCs lots of character points, allowing very high defenses, and using various optional rules, resulting in swashbuckling action that is the polar opposite of gritty realism.

There is no rule in GURPS that prevents an ordinary human from having ST 1000 and enough hit points to shrug off a tank shell.