From R&C: Pargon Paths & Epic Destinies

[Bishmon]

From the art gallery in the back, you can add: "Primal Blaster" (p.94). If I hadda guess, it's a Paragon Path.

Maybe that's the ranger/wizard one? Seems to make sense.

We planned to include 12 paragon paths, so we saw that if we had each path based on 2 classes, each class would lead to 3 paths.

I don't think it's been confirmed, but this seems to be another strong indication that they're looking at having 8 classes in the PHB.

Epic destinies are a smaller group, but each one gives you some huge benefits. Only a few are planned for the Player’s Handbook, but when you have the option to serve as the right-hand man to a god, become an undying warrior, or call dragons with a wave of your hand, more than a few choices will make your head explode in a burst of awesome. By the time you finish your epic destiny, you’ll be stomping down all challengers, breaking rules of science and odds are you’ll be immortal.

This is awesome. It's certainly not for everyone, but I think it's great. If I take a favorite character from level 1 to level 30, I'd love to be able to retire him as an immortal or an unequaled archmage or whatever. Really, really cool.

 

[Pinotage]

Epic destinies are a smaller group, but each one gives you some huge benefits. Only a few are planned for the Player’s Handbook, but when you have the option to serve as the right-hand man to a god, become an undying warrior, or call dragons with a wave of your hand, more than a few choices will make your head explode in a burst of awesome. By the time you finish your epic destiny, you’ll be stomping down all challengers, breaking rules of science and odds are you’ll be immortal.

This is quite interesting. In 3e you'd hit epic level at level 20, but the scope of this epic destiny was certainly above your average 21st level character.

It makes me wonder if they've just condensed the entire epic spectrum (3e 20+ levels) into 10 levels of the epic destinies era in 4e. Which means that while they saying they're broadening the spectrum of play from level 1-30 instead of level 1-20, they aren't really. It looks like they're shortening it - I wonder if that's a result of the deliberate power creep in the 4e game.

Which, of course, leads to the question whether the paragon paths are equivalent to the old epic from 3e?

Pinotage

 

[Stormtalon]

Based on the pic, I'd tend to lean towards Primal Blaster being more akin to either Ranger/Warlock or maybe Ranger/Sorcerer (the latter meaning that it wouldn't be in the first PHB, most likely). R&C does make mention (in passing) of the Arcane Archer, so I think that's more than likely the Ranger/Wizard path.

 

[Kintara]

This is quite interesting. In 3e you'd hit epic level at level 20, but the scope of this epic destiny was certainly above your average 21st level character.

It makes me wonder if they've just condensed the entire epic spectrum (3e 20+ levels) into 10 levels of the epic destinies era in 4e. Which means that while they saying they're broadening the spectrum of play from level 1-30 instead of level 1-20, they aren't really. It looks like they're shortening it - I wonder if that's a result of the deliberate power creep in the 4e game.

Which, of course, leads to the question whether the paragon paths are equivalent to the old epic from 3e?

Pinotage

Power creep is something that happens within editions not between them. Besides, I don't think the comparisons are meaningful. How could you condense the epic level rules, that reach to infinity, into ten levels meaningfully? They are different systems with different parameters. It seems like Epic destinies, when they reach their end, have drastic transformative consequences. There's no advancing from there, not from a personal, inherent power standpoint. That concept just doesn't translate meaningfully from 3.x.

Edit: In other words, 3.x is "turtles all the way down." While 4th Edition is entirely contained in one turtle.

 

[Pinotage]

Power creep is something that happens within editions not between them. Besides, I don't think the comparisons are meaningful. How could you condense the epic level rules, that reach to infinity, into ten levels meaningfully? They are different systems with different parameters. It seems like Epic destinies, when they reach their end, have drastic transformative consequences. There's no advancing from there, not from a personal, inherent power standpoint. That concept just doesn't translate meaningfully from 3.x.

Edit: In other words, 3.x is "turtles all the way down." While 4th Edition is entirely contained in one turtle.

Well, you're going from your average level 1 hero to a 'sexy shoeless god of war' by level 30. In my limited experience of 3e epic play, it would take much longer to achieve a position where you could 'summon dragons at the wave of a hand'. Now, I understand the motivation of making it an 'ending' but it still feels like they've actually condensed levels rather than expanded the 'sweet spot'. I wonder now if level 15 4e characters are going to be bad-ass level 25 3e characters.

Pinotage

 

[Kintara]

Well, you're going from your average level 1 hero to a 'sexy shoeless god of war' by level 30. In my limited experience of 3e epic play, it would take much longer to achieve a position where you could 'summon dragons at the wave of a hand'. Now, I understand the motivation of making it an 'ending' but it still feels like they've actually condensed levels rather than expanded the 'sweet spot'. I wonder now if level 15 4e characters are going to be bad-ass level 25 3e characters.

Pinotage

Well, the thing about the epic rules was that they were crappy. The sweet spot wasn't about a perceived level of "badassness" that felt right. It was about the numbers. At the low and high levels, things (i.e., gameplay) got wonky. This only goes doubly so for the Epic rules.

In fact, I'm sure a Wizard with the right Epic Spellcasting twinkery could do much of what is being discussed pretty quickly. You might not get a class ability to summon dragons like that, but you could develop an epic spell to do so.

The Epic rules are so open-ended and divergent that balance really starts to become meaningless.

Edit: The Epic rules have their uses, but, I still think they just aren't all that similar to anything we'll see in 4e. The principles are just so different.

 

[Belorin]

On the other hand, the impression I got was that since you didn't lose anything at all by taking one of these that there was no reason not to. Your class doesn't change from taking a Paragon Path or Epic Destiny.

I got the impression that instead you were a Fighter who was on the Paragon Path of Weapon Master. You got all the fighter powers with no changes, but that at whatever levels you'd also gain Weapon Master abilities.

And choosing at least one Epic Destiny seemed required from what I read. Just the way it was worded saying that your Epic Destiny determined how you left the campaign when you became 31st level. It wasn't worded in a way that implies there was any way NOT to leave at 31st level or that you might not have an Epic Destiny.

It might be possible that there is an alternate list of fighter powers that you'd get instead of a Paragon Path ability if you choose not to take one, but nothing like that was suggested in what was written so far.

True, but alot of the art thru out the book show paragon fighter, warlord, etc as well as epic versions. Of course art is not a compelling argument either way.

Bel

 

[Traycor]

Classes mentioned under the Swordmage
Bladesinger

All kinds of W00T!!!

 

[howandwhy99]

Are these like the Warhammer RPG paths? Can you qualify for only certain ones depending upon what your starting or intermediary classes are?

 

[neceros]

I hoped that at least some Paragon Paths was related to the race and not the class.
Maybe in a splatbook/PHB2...

Funny: I hated those prestige classes.

Well, you're going from your average level 1 hero to a 'sexy shoeless god of war' by level 30. In my limited experience of 3e epic play, it would take much longer to achieve a position where you could 'summon dragons at the wave of a hand'. Now, I understand the motivation of making it an 'ending' but it still feels like they've actually condensed levels rather than expanded the 'sweet spot'. I wonder now if level 15 4e characters are going to be bad-ass level 25 3e characters.

Pinotage

Realize that level requirements most likely have changed. For instance, the difference between level 1 and 2 should be about 50% (random number, I'm not sure of their algorithms.) Therefore, each time you level you get extravagantly more powerful, so at level 10 compared to level 1 you're exponentially more powerful that you can't even compare.

Epic levels in 3x were a disaster. This way, we can be epic, have epic equivalent abilities (compared to 3x), but still b e defined in the rules, ergo still have a game to play.