MongooseMatt
First Post
Eosin the Red said:
You missed the most important thing of all - a business plan. . .
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From the Ground Up - Building a Game Company
- Thread starter Eosin the Red
- Start date
You missed the most important thing of all - a business plan. . .
Krail Stromquism
First Post
Good Stuff!
I really like this thread, its fun to see you move along.
Im curious what software you're going with?
If you were going to blow the bank, I'd go with Adobe CS and Macromedia MX Studio 2004, with Flash Pro. InDesign is way better than PageMaker if you are already used to Adobe products. Dreamweaver and Fireworks are great for webdesign, and easy to use, and Flash is just the bomb.
Art and Design are so important. The template you have is more than good enough, but be sure to put money aside for future redesign. Most freelancers run anywhere from 35-50 bucks an hour and if you took to an actual agencey your talking in to 100-150 dollar range. You can pick up demos of a lot of these programs, worth learning. Even if you pay for a new look or template you can implement everything else yourself. Also as a dorky side note Macromedia has a new product called contribute, which you probably dont need as you probably know HTML well enough, but it allows you to 'lock down' pages, thus other people working on them cant go in and destroy/monkey with junk. Say you lock out all you site but the main body text, then anyone you authorize can edit that text via contribute, might be a good way to let your partners participate.
Ive been wanting to use this since I saw it, anyohws.
As far as art goes you can never spend too much. when you break it down to pay vs. time spent, most of these guys are making 7-10 an hour, if they are fast!
anyhows if you have any Q's about any junk I just said, feel free to visit my website or email me.
www.mythdrivinglegend.com
I think your doing a great job so far. I used to have picture on my site and the jist of it was growing up doesnt mean stop dreaming, it means taking responisbility for your dreams. It seems to me like your doing just that.
I really like this thread, its fun to see you move along.
Im curious what software you're going with?
If you were going to blow the bank, I'd go with Adobe CS and Macromedia MX Studio 2004, with Flash Pro. InDesign is way better than PageMaker if you are already used to Adobe products. Dreamweaver and Fireworks are great for webdesign, and easy to use, and Flash is just the bomb.
Art and Design are so important. The template you have is more than good enough, but be sure to put money aside for future redesign. Most freelancers run anywhere from 35-50 bucks an hour and if you took to an actual agencey your talking in to 100-150 dollar range. You can pick up demos of a lot of these programs, worth learning. Even if you pay for a new look or template you can implement everything else yourself. Also as a dorky side note Macromedia has a new product called contribute, which you probably dont need as you probably know HTML well enough, but it allows you to 'lock down' pages, thus other people working on them cant go in and destroy/monkey with junk. Say you lock out all you site but the main body text, then anyone you authorize can edit that text via contribute, might be a good way to let your partners participate.
Ive been wanting to use this since I saw it, anyohws.
As far as art goes you can never spend too much. when you break it down to pay vs. time spent, most of these guys are making 7-10 an hour, if they are fast!
anyhows if you have any Q's about any junk I just said, feel free to visit my website or email me.
www.mythdrivinglegend.com
I think your doing a great job so far. I used to have picture on my site and the jist of it was growing up doesnt mean stop dreaming, it means taking responisbility for your dreams. It seems to me like your doing just that.
Last edited:
Qwillion
First Post
The Silent Partner
ok one eosin did not tell me about this thread right away, two I work long hours at a place with no internet accesse, three I am in the process of moving into my new house which will not be ready till april, so I am at my parents with basic dial up until then.
Eosin you need to talk to me about webdesign I am very happy with the sight but I have a friend (I sent him an email about it).
oh and for everyone here who do not know me
My bio for the site.
Steven “Quillion” Russell of Dayton, Ohio is a 30 year old D&D addict who refuses to go in for treatment. He is supported and betrayed by his fanatical gaming companions known as “The Group” who are currently exploring, play testing, and being assaulted by Steve’s designs for 3P.
Steve has been a Gamemaster for 17+ years (he will compare war stories with you), having played with a red box first edition, he has played Vampire, Larps, Torg, Rolemaster, Marvel Superheroes, Champions, GURPS, Star wars (west end and d20), Shadowrun, Mutants and Masterminds, WoT Rpg, Midnight and a dozen others he cannot remember the names off. Reluctant to switch to 3E because he was in the middle of a 2 year campaign, his players forced him too after finding they loved the system. Once he made the change he never looked back.
After finding a new measure of happiness and freedom in his life this year, Steve began to actively pursue bring his work to a professional level. During this time he has placed third in the Enkwell.com (waves to Brannon Hollingsworth) treasure contest and had his submission accepted by Bastion Press (waves to Jim Butler) for Arms and Armor 3.5. He has also had work accepted by various other small publishing companies such as Khan Press (weaves to Garth Wright.)
.
Steve continues to write for the d20 section of silven.com (waves to Steel), and is best known for his prestige production articles, He also writes Quillion’s Quill for the Silven trumpeter (waves to Kosala), which is based on his postings in the Silven forums.
While in the middle of doing query letters for Dragon and Dungeon magazine, Steve was offered a partnership in 3P by Eosin the Red (Randy Madden), diving in head first he began work on a project code named “HTBM” writing in a Microcosm-fantastical style completely at odds with his Eosin’s Macrocosm-Historical style. Steve also writes the Freestyle Campaigning Articles for Pencilpushers.net
Steve’s influences are drawn from Homer (not Simpson), Greek Mythology, Robert Jordan, Steven Schend, Roger Zeleney, Orsan Scott Card, Frank Herbert, Stephen R. Donaldson, George R.R. Martin, J. M. Strazinzki, Frank Miller, Mark Gruenwald, Chris Claremont, Archie Goodwin, Peter David, Fabian Nacezia, and Ed Greenwood.
His current favorite D20 products are Geanuve The Stones of Peace by Ed Greenwood for Kenzer Co’s Kingdoms of Kalamar, Book of the Righteous by Aaron Loeb (and others) from Green Ronin Publishing, and the Monsternomicon by Various from Privateer Press and he is looking forward to a print version of Legacy of the Dragons by Mike Mearls and Monte cook from Malhavoc Press.
His favorite Websites are (other than the obvious wizards, enworld, Montecook.com, Mortality radio etc.)
Silven.com check out the Feat Factory by Astros and Game Reviews by Steel
Giantitp.com check out the order of the stick comic, The New world articles and “This Old Rule“.
Roleplayingtips.com with a massive archive that can help any campaign.
ok one eosin did not tell me about this thread right away, two I work long hours at a place with no internet accesse, three I am in the process of moving into my new house which will not be ready till april, so I am at my parents with basic dial up until then.
Eosin you need to talk to me about webdesign I am very happy with the sight but I have a friend (I sent him an email about it).
oh and for everyone here who do not know me
My bio for the site.
Steven “Quillion” Russell of Dayton, Ohio is a 30 year old D&D addict who refuses to go in for treatment. He is supported and betrayed by his fanatical gaming companions known as “The Group” who are currently exploring, play testing, and being assaulted by Steve’s designs for 3P.
Steve has been a Gamemaster for 17+ years (he will compare war stories with you), having played with a red box first edition, he has played Vampire, Larps, Torg, Rolemaster, Marvel Superheroes, Champions, GURPS, Star wars (west end and d20), Shadowrun, Mutants and Masterminds, WoT Rpg, Midnight and a dozen others he cannot remember the names off. Reluctant to switch to 3E because he was in the middle of a 2 year campaign, his players forced him too after finding they loved the system. Once he made the change he never looked back.
After finding a new measure of happiness and freedom in his life this year, Steve began to actively pursue bring his work to a professional level. During this time he has placed third in the Enkwell.com (waves to Brannon Hollingsworth) treasure contest and had his submission accepted by Bastion Press (waves to Jim Butler) for Arms and Armor 3.5. He has also had work accepted by various other small publishing companies such as Khan Press (weaves to Garth Wright.)
.
Steve continues to write for the d20 section of silven.com (waves to Steel), and is best known for his prestige production articles, He also writes Quillion’s Quill for the Silven trumpeter (waves to Kosala), which is based on his postings in the Silven forums.
While in the middle of doing query letters for Dragon and Dungeon magazine, Steve was offered a partnership in 3P by Eosin the Red (Randy Madden), diving in head first he began work on a project code named “HTBM” writing in a Microcosm-fantastical style completely at odds with his Eosin’s Macrocosm-Historical style. Steve also writes the Freestyle Campaigning Articles for Pencilpushers.net
Steve’s influences are drawn from Homer (not Simpson), Greek Mythology, Robert Jordan, Steven Schend, Roger Zeleney, Orsan Scott Card, Frank Herbert, Stephen R. Donaldson, George R.R. Martin, J. M. Strazinzki, Frank Miller, Mark Gruenwald, Chris Claremont, Archie Goodwin, Peter David, Fabian Nacezia, and Ed Greenwood.
His current favorite D20 products are Geanuve The Stones of Peace by Ed Greenwood for Kenzer Co’s Kingdoms of Kalamar, Book of the Righteous by Aaron Loeb (and others) from Green Ronin Publishing, and the Monsternomicon by Various from Privateer Press and he is looking forward to a print version of Legacy of the Dragons by Mike Mearls and Monte cook from Malhavoc Press.
His favorite Websites are (other than the obvious wizards, enworld, Montecook.com, Mortality radio etc.)
Silven.com check out the Feat Factory by Astros and Game Reviews by Steel
Giantitp.com check out the order of the stick comic, The New world articles and “This Old Rule“.
Roleplayingtips.com with a massive archive that can help any campaign.
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the mongoose brings up a good point: business plan (I do have a business degree)
It's also a good idea to have some sort of market research (or fake data) supporting your plan to release a campaign world product.
Its a matter of studying what works. If campaign worlds don't sell well, then your chances of success in that format is lower than if you picked a different product category).
From what I can tell, the product categories seem to be:
monster collections (monsters that infect with eggs, then burst thru chest)
spell collections (Bigby's clenched arse, Bigby's groping fingers...)
item collections (my new vapor longsword +3 is misty!)
campaign worlds (in the beginning...)
adventure/modules (rescue princess, get gold, the end)
class expansion books (fighters need more feats)
race expansion books (now elves are even kewler)
new race or class expansion books (let's invent sponge-people)
new rules on a new topic (D&D3.x has no ship rules, I'll write them)
rewriting rules on a topic books (ie. my sailing ship rules are better than his)
Service Packs (Earthy Arcana book will replace all the core rules with mine)
Short PDFs on a topic (PhillipJReed thinks these sell well, his stuff sells)
Having done no market research myself (the Scott Adams approach), I can tell you that Short PDFs, new rules on a new topic, monster and spell collections seem to go over well. I say this because people keep making them, so they must do well. I get the feeling that campaign worlds do not (since Wotc has seperated itself a bit from the process). Or more to say, there's money in the initial release, but supporting it tends to drag things down. Which is why Wotc changed it's campaign world practices a bit. I would expect them to kill Eberon or FR after a certain amount of time. The worlds they license are different, in that they do initial work (ie. Wheel of Time) but then shut it down.
A good poll would be to ask how many GMs use homebrew versus boxed campaign worlds. You could subdivide boxed campaigns into Wotc ones, or third party ones, or ones adapted directly from non-d20 sources. Someone out there is running a D20 modern game in the StarGate setting without the AEG books. I ran an FR campaign with nothing more than the map from an FR novel. Those GMs are effectively running a homebrew with inspiration from another source (aka the Man isn't getting a cut).
Just some thoughts,
Janx
It's also a good idea to have some sort of market research (or fake data) supporting your plan to release a campaign world product.
Its a matter of studying what works. If campaign worlds don't sell well, then your chances of success in that format is lower than if you picked a different product category).
From what I can tell, the product categories seem to be:
monster collections (monsters that infect with eggs, then burst thru chest)
spell collections (Bigby's clenched arse, Bigby's groping fingers...)
item collections (my new vapor longsword +3 is misty!)
campaign worlds (in the beginning...)
adventure/modules (rescue princess, get gold, the end)
class expansion books (fighters need more feats)
race expansion books (now elves are even kewler)
new race or class expansion books (let's invent sponge-people)
new rules on a new topic (D&D3.x has no ship rules, I'll write them)
rewriting rules on a topic books (ie. my sailing ship rules are better than his)
Service Packs (Earthy Arcana book will replace all the core rules with mine)
Short PDFs on a topic (PhillipJReed thinks these sell well, his stuff sells)
Having done no market research myself (the Scott Adams approach), I can tell you that Short PDFs, new rules on a new topic, monster and spell collections seem to go over well. I say this because people keep making them, so they must do well. I get the feeling that campaign worlds do not (since Wotc has seperated itself a bit from the process). Or more to say, there's money in the initial release, but supporting it tends to drag things down. Which is why Wotc changed it's campaign world practices a bit. I would expect them to kill Eberon or FR after a certain amount of time. The worlds they license are different, in that they do initial work (ie. Wheel of Time) but then shut it down.
A good poll would be to ask how many GMs use homebrew versus boxed campaign worlds. You could subdivide boxed campaigns into Wotc ones, or third party ones, or ones adapted directly from non-d20 sources. Someone out there is running a D20 modern game in the StarGate setting without the AEG books. I ran an FR campaign with nothing more than the map from an FR novel. Those GMs are effectively running a homebrew with inspiration from another source (aka the Man isn't getting a cut).
Just some thoughts,
Janx
Eosin the Red
First Post
MongooseMatt said:
I guess that means I get an F in economics, but my bedside manner is A+. I have "A" plan, but I don't know if it is a business plan. I always wondered what people exactly meant when they said that? Just like you probably wonder what all of the numbers that nurses and dr's look at to determine your state of health.
Business Plan = make money selling books.
I can identify strategies employed by various publishers. It is harder to identify successful strategies since few know any concrete numbers. I also have strategies and methods to the madness of what I am doing. Will they work? That is the real question.
In the Nursing, Fire Fighting, and Paramedics field, they teach variations of a triage approach. We were taught to:
1. assess the situation.
2. formulate a strategy for successfully navigating the situation (plan of care).
3. implement plan of care.
4. note results.
5. reassess the situation to see if your plan of care is achieving the desired results.
6. adjust the strategy to incorporate new data.
7. implement adjusted plan of care then start at #4 again.
The last parts of this triage method is to recognize what you can save and what is beyond your skill in the situation you are currently in. Back in the fire fighter days – those were the red tags. When someone was so wasted or just plain dead, you placed a red clip on their chest. This told everyone to move on down the road, nothing to see here. Go do something constructive, this person is not worth the effort it will take to save them. In the Emergency Rooms that I have worked at I referred to this as DRT – Dead Right There [pleasant thought for those of you who are squeamish].
I have done numbers 1-2 and I am implementing number 3.
Never one to be gun shy, I will stick around through the whole process and let people know what I did right and wrong.
Why does all of this matter and how is it relevant?
My guess is that a business plan is something similar.
Know the field you are getting into.
Develop a strategy for achieving your goals within that field.
Implement that same strategy.
Take note of the results that are achieved through your plan.
Develop a new strategy based on the data that has been “objectively observed.”
Implement your new plan of action and then go back to step 4.
Most importantly – identify what you can save and what is worth saving. Concentration of least effort to most positive outcomes is the most desirable expression of energy. If something is DRT don’t spend an hour trying to do CPR, cancel the line and spend your efforts on a line that has some life in it.
Thanks for the input. If that is a business plan, then I have one! If it is not then I am truly doomed!
Sharing a business plan, now that would be a little on the brave little soldier line. It is like telling the person who comes in after a heart attack that the reason we put those funny little machines on their chest is that in the first 48 hours after an MI the heart is electrically erratic and likely to enter into terminal arrhythmias. Those little wires allow us to watch as that happens. That may be the truth but it is not going to make the patient feel any better, in fact, it will likely make them feel worse. They were better off assuming that you are looking after them, which is exactly what you are doing. Knowing the details is sometimes …. unpleasant. Like looking at an advertisement for a gaming magazine and seeing something close to pornographic material in the form of a scantily clad babe with a chainmail thong. I like skin, but sometimes this can jump into the realm of “do they really think I am that stupid?”
I guess that means that I think I have a business plan.
I will try to get to all of the other comments today but forgive me if I let them go for a few days.
tonym
First Post
Eosin the Red said:
The Oprah has some info on business plans located here:
http://www.oxygen.com/contest/getthemoney/resnick/plan.aspx
Eosin, one thing confuses me about this whole project: The project seems to be about two different things at the same time: (1) Making a single product that probably won't make any money, but you'll be happy because of the reasons you listed, and (2) making an RPG company that will generate regular bucks.
I guess I'm supposed to see (1) as leading to (2)....but I don't.
To my mind, (1) leads to (1) leads to (1) leads to (1)...
Changing (1) to read, "Make $500 profit with the first product and invest that money back into the company"...now THAT seems to lead to (2). IMHO, of course. I'm not a business person.
I'm really interested in following this whole enterprise. Good luck!
Tony M
Do a search for "Business Plan" as well as Small Business Development Center
Most bigger cities have an SBDC, and they can help you figure out your business plan document. Business Plans are formal documents that banks and other people who like to give money away read to assure them that your not unorganized.
"make money selling books" is more of a Mission Statement.
You can find templates for writing a business plan online and in books on the subject. I've had to write them in college, as well as SWOT analysis (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats).
You are right in that a business plan does include a process like you mentioned. It also should include an Exit Strategy (how do you shut down shop), as well as delegation of authority (you and Quillion are in charge, but who has final say).
Having a business plan may help you work with big dogs like Green Ronin. In the example you gave, they wanted to know what you could do for them. Your business plan should be able to answer that. (in theory, you would help Green Ronin by providing products that support and require Green Ronin's products, thus increasing demand for Green Ronin products).
Good luck,
Janx
Most bigger cities have an SBDC, and they can help you figure out your business plan document. Business Plans are formal documents that banks and other people who like to give money away read to assure them that your not unorganized.
"make money selling books" is more of a Mission Statement.
You can find templates for writing a business plan online and in books on the subject. I've had to write them in college, as well as SWOT analysis (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats).
You are right in that a business plan does include a process like you mentioned. It also should include an Exit Strategy (how do you shut down shop), as well as delegation of authority (you and Quillion are in charge, but who has final say).
Having a business plan may help you work with big dogs like Green Ronin. In the example you gave, they wanted to know what you could do for them. Your business plan should be able to answer that. (in theory, you would help Green Ronin by providing products that support and require Green Ronin's products, thus increasing demand for Green Ronin products).
Good luck,
Janx
MangahunterD
First Post
Well Eosin
Man Eosin I am crushed... I thought we were friends and I heard about this from a thrid party.....
I guess my publishing experience, Access to cheap software, and really good friend who does cheap work for buddies who is a Published Artist/Graphic Designer/ Web Designer/ Former Gamer and works for a major publisher in Quillons backyard..... means nothing....
Oh well...
On the other hand I really hope Amy is okay, I will say something for her tonight as I go to slumber....
Man Eosin I am crushed... I thought we were friends and I heard about this from a thrid party.....
I guess my publishing experience, Access to cheap software, and really good friend who does cheap work for buddies who is a Published Artist/Graphic Designer/ Web Designer/ Former Gamer and works for a major publisher in Quillons backyard..... means nothing....
Oh well...
On the other hand I really hope Amy is okay, I will say something for her tonight as I go to slumber....
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Qwillion
First Post
Yes Eosin and I have had this disscussion and I feel since eosin asked me to join, I should be the silent partner and have tried to remain so.
In my mind I was wanting to be a small pdf publisher untill we found our stide and our niche. (me I was working on a Epic level pdf at the time Eosin contacted me), art would have been friends and newbies who wanted to get thier stuff out there. Thinking that the best way to make money was not to spend any.
Eosin however wants to from 0-60 in a few months and is on a manic drive toward his goal. I don't see it as horrible, as I think Eosin will put out a high quality adventure that will be well recieved by anyone who reads it. There in lies the problem.
I would rather have spent money on advertising than on art. People say art makes a book but I don't remeber adventures for thier artwork, unless all the art work is handouts, such as adventures like Tomb of Horrors or White Plume Mountain.Other than that the only time a picture is required is when you are doing a monster book, as nothing is more annoying than lacking the evocotive element of a monster to show your players.
Yet, Eosin is the boss, but when he wanted to cut HTMB to 48 pages I was like Hell NO! he listened to me and I padded my count to 244 and I got the 96 I wanted (though I wished for 225).
We have different views that always seems to be the difference between Macrocosom and Microcosom. Yet when I look at the bussiness plan, If we do not succeed with the grand scheme, we can continue to pursue the small niche and our stide even if we stumble.
Overall I am extremlly happy to be working with some one of Eosin's skills and insane drive.
High Hopes
In my mind I was wanting to be a small pdf publisher untill we found our stide and our niche. (me I was working on a Epic level pdf at the time Eosin contacted me), art would have been friends and newbies who wanted to get thier stuff out there. Thinking that the best way to make money was not to spend any.
Eosin however wants to from 0-60 in a few months and is on a manic drive toward his goal. I don't see it as horrible, as I think Eosin will put out a high quality adventure that will be well recieved by anyone who reads it. There in lies the problem.
I would rather have spent money on advertising than on art. People say art makes a book but I don't remeber adventures for thier artwork, unless all the art work is handouts, such as adventures like Tomb of Horrors or White Plume Mountain.Other than that the only time a picture is required is when you are doing a monster book, as nothing is more annoying than lacking the evocotive element of a monster to show your players.
Yet, Eosin is the boss, but when he wanted to cut HTMB to 48 pages I was like Hell NO! he listened to me and I padded my count to 244 and I got the 96 I wanted (though I wished for 225).
We have different views that always seems to be the difference between Macrocosom and Microcosom. Yet when I look at the bussiness plan, If we do not succeed with the grand scheme, we can continue to pursue the small niche and our stide even if we stumble.
Overall I am extremlly happy to be working with some one of Eosin's skills and insane drive.
High Hopes
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