Fudging for fun and profit.

wedgeski

Adventurer
So, basically, a DM is choosing to design things such that it's possible for this event to occur, and such that when the event does occur, the DM will feel obligated to change the rules of the action-resolution he's chosen to use (in both system and encounter design).

That doesn't seem odd?
Far more eloquence than I can muster has been applied to answering this question in the course of the thread, but I will simply answer thusly: no, and why? Because I say so.

Nothing my players have ever communicated to me gives me the impression that they will feel cheated if I fudge the odd dice, and they know I do so on occasion.

When my internal radar for the ongoing drama, pace, and outright coolness of the game tells me that a fudge is required, then let there be fudge.

Similarly, when a point of order or rules might retroactively get in the face of something awesome one of the PC's did last round, I let it slide. We all let it slide. It doesn't matter that the time they charged the BBEG and bull-rushed him off the cliff just before he killed the fighter, they actually moved one square too many. Forget it, the game is not served by acting on it, consider it a fudge on the other side of the screen.

That's the accord. I even kind of wrote it down months and months ago, because I thought it was so important.

We're all there to create a fun, challenging game. The rules of D&D are the start of that process, not the end.
 

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aboyd

Explorer
I encourage folks who are "casual fudgers" (now why does that sound dirty?) to examine, again and more closely, the reason that they think -- if they do -- that fudging should be kept secret from players.
Why are you pursuing the badwrongfun angle?
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Yes, but why?

There's a few reasons.

For one DM, as a person, is apt to be predictable. If you fudge frequently, those patterns will become apparent, and the players will learn to use them, just as they can learn to use a biased die that more frequently rolls high. If you fudge infrequently, the sample size the players have is too small for them to effectively predict you. If you fudge infrequently and hidden, the players won't be able to sort out the "signal" of the fudge from the noise.

For all that I may say I can identify occasional problem points that might call for a fudge, that doesn't mean that I think I know best for every single (or even most single) rolls, or that the game is best played with the DM determining many things directly. I generally like the way the dice play things out. Fudging is for me more of a "in case of emergency, break glass" sort of thing.

There are probably other reasons that aren't popping to mind at the moment.

Okay, that makes sense, but in that case I'd suggest that instead of saying things like, "I almost never do this," say, "I don't do this to push things toward a larger outcome I've predetermined."

Yes. I think I did use words to that effect upthread. Sometimes, you need to use multiple statements to cover one base.

(I almost left the "larger" out of that sentence, but that wouldn't work. Because folks do fudge to push things toward an outcome, right? Even if that outcome is, for example, a fight that doesn't end prematurely due to luck that's built into the system we play.)

As I have noted earlier, it is my observation (anecdotal, I know) that the use is generally not towards something, but away from something. If I drive play towards a point, that highly restricts player and random impact on how things unfolds. If I drive things away from one point, all the other points are still available, so randomness and player initiative can still strongly impact play.

That's kind of a non-answer, isn't it? Why don't you want the players to know what's happening behind the curtain? Would it make the game less fun for them?

No, it is an answer to provoke thought, with a suggestion of the direction in which thinking might be useful.

You don't know why I don't hand over all the scenario information. But I'll hazard a guess that you don't hand it over either. Why not? We probably share several reasons. Some of those probably apply.

Someone upthread used the example of the BBEG rolling either three naturals 1 or three crits to open a combat.

It's extremely important to understand that not only is this built into a system with a random mechanic, it's not even particularly rare in a system in which that mechanic is linear. And not only is it built in, and not only is it fairly common, but any DM with experience knows all this.

Dude, you're talking to members of a species that knowingly builds homes on floodplains and on fault lines and is still stunned when there's a disaster. Risk assessment isn't our strongest suit. :p

But, to be honest, I think the situation is rather more rare than you suggest. It is, of course, dependent on the details of the situation. But we can do some envelope-back estimates for sake of demonstration.

The chance of rolling three 20s in a row is 1 in 8000.
The chance of rolling three 3e critical threats in a row with a longsword is more like 1 in 1000.
In 3e, the chance of those being confirmed criticals is no greater than that, but can drop quickly - if the beastie hits on an 11 or better, the chances drop to 1 in 64000 (or 1 in 8000 for the longsword).

So, as a very rough characterization - we are talking about an event that we might see once or twice if we run 1000 combats.

Take your typical 3e campaign. 20 levels. 13.3 encounters per level. That's like 266 combats. So, let us be generous - we'll see that event once or twice in a campaign? And not every time will I consider that event an issue.

So, now we compare the work to the risk - I can do careful checking on every design to avoid these. I can change my system (which I otherwise like a lot) to avoid these. Or, I can just accept that every once in a while I'll have to consider handling an exception on the spot.

Handling the exception takes me seconds. The extra encounter design work over the course of the campaign probably adds up to hours. The system design changes (with double-checking that I'm not introducing some other unintended consequence) is also in the hours-or-more category.

Seems to me the choice is clear. It doesn't pay to do the work ahead of time to specifically avoid low-probability events. Looking back to the thread title ("Fudging for fun and profit") I think you've helped me identify another reason to consider fudging - Profit! Fudging may be more cost-effective than some of the alternatives to reaching similar ends.
 
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Jeff Wilder

First Post
For one DM, as a person, is apt to be predictable. If you fudge frequently, those patterns will become apparent, and the players will learn to use them, just as they can learn to use a biased die that more frequently rolls high. If you fudge infrequently, the sample size the players have is too small for them to effectively predict you. If you fudge infrequently and hidden, the players won't be able to sort out the "signal" of the fudge from the noise.
Why is it a bad thing if they do?

Fudging is for me more of a "in case of emergency, break glass" sort of thing.
I haven't had a situation in a long, long time in which I needed to alter a die roll to respond to the emergency, though.

(Just in case it's not clear, I am talking about altering the outcome of the outcome-resolution system we'd already chosen to use for our game. I'm not talking about the role-playing aspect of the game ... I think it's a good thing if a GM comes up with an in-game rationale for not taking a swing on a PC who is one hit from outright death, for instance.)

There are probably other reasons that aren't popping to mind at the moment.
I'm genuinely interested, so if and when they come to mind, please share them here.

Yes. I think I did use words to that effect upthread. Sometimes, you need to use multiple statements to cover one base.
You probably did. I think it's a different base, though.

As I have noted earlier, it is my observation (anecdotal, I know) that the use is generally not towards something, but away from something. If I drive play towards a point, that highly restricts player and random impact on how things unfolds. If I drive things away from one point, all the other points are still available, so randomness and player initiative can still strongly impact play.
That's a good point. It's a matter of degree, but the difference isn't trivial, and I see that.

You don't know why I don't hand over all the scenario information. But I'll hazard a guess that you don't hand it over either. Why not?
For the same reason I don't fudge the die results ... I believe it would lessen the players' enjoyment.

Dude, you're talking to members of a species that knowingly builds homes on floodplains and on fault lines and is still stunned when there's a disaster. Risk assessment isn't our strongest suit.
The San Andreas fault is one-quarter mile from the home I just bought. If there's an earthquake, I am gonna be so pissed off!

But, to be honest, I think the situation is rather more rare than you suggest.
As far as i can tell, in your calculations you didn't account for just how many "three roll groupings" there are in a typical game session.

You did show awareness of the fact that any given roll doesn't have to be extraordinary in some objective way, just extraordinary in a situation. (E.g., if I need to roll a 7 to hit a BBEG, it's extraordinary if I missed him six times in a row. It really doesn't matter if I miss him six times in a row all with natural 1s.)

But you say fudging is rare for you, and that statement is good enough for me.

How does the atheism quote go? "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do."

I can just accept that every once in a while I'll have to consider handling an exception on the spot. [...] Seems to me the choice is clear. It doesn't pay to do the work ahead of time to specifically avoid low-probability events.
My contention is that there are ways of handling the exceptions that don't have the potential to do so much damage to the social contract between GM and players.

That social contract doesn't exist for some groups. Some players don't care whether the GM alters the die rolls. My players do, I do (as a player), and in my experience most players -- or at least very many -- do. And I think that the possibility of harming the social contract -- whether it's explicit or not -- is the primary reason that GMs that alter die rolls do so secretly.
 

Jeff Wilder

First Post
Say what you may about fudging, but this here is just Wrong! (that's right, capital-W wrong)

It's the players responsibility to take care of the DM. If the man wants some beer, Go Get Him Some Beer!
I think it might have been too obvious that I didn't really want beer ... I was just a little tired of dealing with that player!
 

Barastrondo

First Post
Rob Donoghue makes some interesting arguments here about the nature of how we use dice: specifically, the split between Oracle and Arbiter. I think there's a third potential way to use the dice: Brainstorm, wherein you fish about for an immediate suggestion, and if it seems inappropriate, you go with something as close to it as is workable.

I'd hazard a guess that some folks prefer to use dice solely as arbiters, and others use them in a variety of roles, possibly in some ways Rob and I don't consider. (For instance, the psychological trick of rolling a die behind a screen that means nothing, but is meant to capture the player's attention and get them worrying.) What a die roll "means" can be kind of variable, and the problems mostly arise if you have different expectations of, say, all-arbiter vs. a variety of uses.
 

Jeff Wilder

First Post
Rob Donoghue makes some interesting arguments here about the nature of how we use dice: specifically, the split between Oracle and Arbiter.
That's an excellent essay. I know Rob from way back when -- we used to play AmberMUSH together and hung out socially a few times -- and it's cool to see that he's still into gaming.
 

aboyd

Explorer
A person says that when she plays Monopoly she loves using the Free Parking house rule. Someone urges that person to reconsider. The Free Parking fan says, "Huh? But it's fun. Why would I reconsider that?"

A person says that he loves to drop almost all the dragons from Runebound so that every dragon fight is the BBEG fight, shortening the game by hours, making it more reasonable for casual gamers. Someone else chimes in, suggesting that he really needs to examine his decision to do this. The Runebound player says, "What? My reasons are good. This is a successful change. I'll keep playing how I want, thanks."

Actually there are about 3 more paragraphs of explanation, but I realized as I was typing out the examples that I don't care enough to get detailed. If you can see how I'm getting the "you have fun wrong" vibe from your "you guys should rethink this" comment, great. If not, I'll leave it be.
 

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