gambling and alignment

[dulsin]

Evil? Hardly. I would say that gambling prolly falls under 'chaotic' though, and many strict doctrinarian religions might lump chaos and evil together.

Why is it that people automaticly place anything some over moralistic church is against as Evil?

I have a basic rule of thumb
Sins that deal with property and money and fun fall on the Law/Chaos axis

These are all sins (with a small s)
Gambling
Prositution
Drunkeness
Theft

Sins that deal with Lives, rights, and freedom are on the Good/Evil axis

These are the big Sins (capital S)
Murder
Slavery
Tyrany
Torture
Treason

The Elves (CG) would probably have no objection to the first list unless they were directly affected. Paladins (LG) would try to stamp them out with the absence of the capital S sins. Both would fight shoulder to shoulder against the second list.

Devils (LE) have no use for the loose morals unless they control it they are all about TYRANY organisation and a strict ranking system. Demons (CE) are the ultimate in "personal" expression nothing is forbidden and they will never willingly put themselves under the athority of another.

 

[MarauderX]

Sure, any alignment can gamble IMO. Same with using drugs. Anyone can be addicted.

 

[Wicht]

Is that really the case for all gambling, or only for illegal gambling? I don't see as legal gambling is any more ripe for criminal exploitation than any other activity that deals with large wads of money.

Here in PA, bookies will use the state run numbers for their own games. In their defense, the bookies pay fairer odds than the state. However they are still illegally exploiting the legal gambling for their own profits.

Casinos in particular, even though legal in some places, would seem excellent money laundering opportunities if I was a crook (which I am not) interested in owning a casino.

 

[Hand of Evil]

I just find it funny that a game played with dice and depended on their rolls that this question can come up.

Soap box answer: depends on the DM's defined game world.

I don't play it as evil in most of my games.

 

[Umbran]

Here in PA, bookies will use the state run numbers for their own games. In their defense, the bookies pay fairer odds than the state. However they are still illegally exploiting the legal gambling for their own profits.

And here in MA, organized crime has been skimming millions of dollars off the top of the "Big Dig" for something like a decade. They are illegally exploiting legal construction projects for their own profits. Docksides have been plagued by crime for time immemorial.

The point being that the fact that it is gambling has little to do with it. Banking, construction, import/export, gambling, investment, corporate finance - they all have crime. Crime goes where there is money, and gambling does not seem to be any more or less vulnerable than any other enterprise that deals with large sums of it.

 

[Wicht]

And here in MA, organized crime has been skimming millions of dollars off the top of the "Big Dig" for something like a decade. They are illegally exploiting legal construction projects for their own profits. Docksides have been plagued by crime for time immemorial.

The point being that the fact that it is gambling has little to do with it. Banking, construction, import/export, gambling, investment, corporate finance - they all have crime. Crime goes where there is money, and gambling does not seem to be any more or less vulnerable than any other enterprise that deals with large sums of it.

How does that ivalidate what I posted, that a PC who gets involved in large scale gambling is likely to run into unsavory elements.

It seems a logical game element to me. A classic cliché which I would not hesitate to employ in my game world. I could also have posted that PCs that hang around docks are likely to run into elements of the pirate community as large scale commercial transportation are ripe for exploitation and illegal profit. Or I could have said that PCs that get involved in trying to organize a massive labor project are going to run smack dab into criminal elements as the labor unions involved are ripe for criminal exploitation.

I am not sure how other activities being ripe for criminal exploitation make gambling any less so. And since gambling was the issue I did not stop and compare it to every other activity that is ripe for criminal exploitation.

 

[Hecateus]

does your alignment view allow for gambling by good characters?

From the dictionary, in their basic forms, Good is that which is Beneficial; Evil is that which is Harmful.

Gambling, since it is on the average more harmful than good to an individual in normal Player vs. House rules, could be easily considered harmful and therefore evil. However it is a form of 'gaming', and is therefore entertainement, and is thus formally not evil. And gambling can be Good, as noted with charitable Bingo events and state lotteries etc.

Religions tend not to like private enterprise gambling as that means parishoners (and their otherwised tithed money) are focused on emotionally intense non-religious social activities...which can lead into desperation and irresponsible if not evil acts.

Simplistically, IMO, it is best to call gambling: 'somewhat Chaotic'.

 

[tzor]

Nice thread so far, and exceptionally civil.

One thing I've noticed is that there seems to be some confusion between good/evil and right/wrong. In the real world, we tend to merge the definitions. Right things are good and wrong things are evil. In D&D, good and evil are rigidly defined, whereas right and wrong are more relative.

To give an easy example, some cultures consider gluttony a sin. Eating to excess is wrong. Paladins under those cultures would not eat to excess because it is wrong. However, it does not fall under the term evil, because it does not follow the general universal definition of evil in the book. Thus the paladin would not loose his abilities should he eat too much because it is not per se an "evil" act, just a "wrong" act and lawful people don't do things they know are "wrong." Likewise gluttons would not show up on the detect evil radar because while wrong it is not evil.

Gambling, even in the real world, is a vague notion, like eating. There are those nice little ladies who hold a raffle or bingo; there are those who will bet on something as a sign of support; there are those who cheat people as a living. One can call it "wrong" but one would be hard pressed to call a convent's 50/50 raffle to help their elderly sisters "evil."

Note that while it is not evil per se to gamble, it is evil to lie and cheat. People who run scam "find the pebble" shell games are evil because they by their nature are lying and cheating. (The pebble is under none of the shells ... isn't that obvious?)

 

[dulsin]

You bring up some very good points. The problem with using the Dictionaries definition is that is based on a single "axis of evil" In DND we have TWO axis to define moral behavior.

Try to use both of them when ever you can.

Chaos/Law - Fun
Good/Evil - Life

LG - We must protect the citizens from evil and corruption
CG - If it doesn't hurt anyone else that is your choise
LE - Bring them under the heel and and make them bleed for us
CE - Blood, Death, Party!

 

[Umbran]

How does that ivalidate what I posted, that a PC who gets involved in large scale gambling is likely to run into unsavory elements.

The original question was, "Is gambling evil?". The point that the character is likely to run into unsavory elements if involved in large-scale gambling is not very telling to that question, because the character is likely to run into unsavory elements if they get involved with large scale anything. Build a castle, gamble, buy an inn, get involved in trading ventures - they've all got crime attached to them.

In essence, I'm just trying to stay on the topic of the original post