Game broke down over Pinning Strike

[wildoxmoan]

Greetings!
Our game broke down for about five minutes last night while we debated how the Ragers 'Pinning Smash' power worked. The rules state that the target is immobilized as long as the fighter is adjacent to it. The fighter was fighting a young dragon (large) and was stunned by its fear inspiring roar. I ruled that since he could take no actions the pin was broken but he argued that as long as he was adjacent, the pin was upheld. I took this information to mean that even if the fighter was dead and rotting, the dragon would not be able to break the pin since he was still adjacent to the corpse? I allowed the pin to continue as my player became petulant at that point. Is there a ruling here? Is the power broken? Have I missed something?
Thanks

 

[Oompa]

As far as the rules say the player is right.. (until he is lying dead on the ground)..

But i can see the point where you can't keep him pinned if you can't take any actions..

Hmm

 

[Nifft]

I'd rule that the Fighter was "scared stiff" -- and unfortunately for the dragon, that means he's (rigidly) still holding it Immobile. This supports the narrative and allows the rules to work.

(IMHO a dead and rotting Fighter isn't able to resist forced movement, so he'd be easy to push away.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[KarinsDad]

This is why having a power that emulates other rules, but does not use them, is a bad design idea:

Effects that End a Grab: If you are affected by a condition that prevents you from taking opportunity actions (such as dazed, stunned, surprised, or unconscious), you immediately let go of a grabbed enemy. If you move away from the creature you’re grabbing, you let go and the grab ends. If a pull, a push, or a slide moves you or the creature you’re grabbing out of your reach, the grab ends.

The power emulates a grab, but does not follow the rules for a grab.

The DM should just rule that Pinning Smash (and other "Pinning" powers like Pinning Strike) actually do a grab.

I consider this extremely poor design. The Dragon should have ways of getting out of this without special powers like Teleport.

 

[Cadfan]

I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the DM has the power to make rulings in situations where the rules are ambiguous, and that this includes the ability to tell a player that a power does not work in a particular situation where it doesn't make sense. Does anyone remember where that was?

Maybe I'm thinking of PHB pg 54, which says that the DM can rule that you can't use your powers in certain situations, such as when your hands are tied. This is a slightly different situation since the power has already been "used" and now we're deciding how its effects continue, but I think its analogous enough to apply.

I don't personally think that the solution to this is flawless rules drafting that never contains these sorts of issues, because I'm not sure that's completely possible without drowning us in text. I think this is a corner case, and that the DM should just make a ruling.

My personal guideline in these disputes is to ask the player to describe why the power would work the way he thinks, speaking in-game instead of by rules references. If he can't, then I go ahead and rule the way I was going to. So I would have asked, "the dragon is pinned even though you can't move? What are you doing that pins it?" And if he gave me something plausible, I'd go with it. If not, I'd say that he had pinned the dragon by fighting with it and that he can't now that he's unable to act.

 

[eriktheguy]

I guess the dragon would have to push the PC away if we are just going by literal interpretation of the rules, and simply stunning the player would not be enough. Still, the rules also say that the DM is boss. That means that if the player continued to argue with you after you clearly stated that you understood the rules, but you were making a logical decision in this case, the player was wrong.

EDIT: you could house rule that the player only keeps the dragon pinned as long as he is threatening the dragon. This way the dragon can escape if the dragon manages to push, stun, blind, or daze him.

 

[Regicide]

I consider this extremely poor design. The Dragon should have ways of getting out of this without special powers like Teleport.

Why should this power be an exception and have additional ways out of it?

Anyway, when the character is dead, they're no longer beside the monster, their corpse is. Unconscious, yes, dead, no.

So the dragon stays pinned for a while, there are far worse powers it could have been hit by.

 

[fissionessence]

RAW, I don't think there's any way that the dragon could have escaped. The power says one thing, so that's what it does.

It's true that the DM can alter things like that to make sense, but this is a case where doing so would be removing power from PCs . . . which PCs don't like. When PCs can't rely on their own abilities to work the way they say they work, this is a problem. Why choose a power if you don't know how your DM will run (or alter) it?

That said, I do like the idea of taking a weird situation (like in the OP) and asking the player to justify why their power continues to function when it wouldn't otherwise seem to make sense.

~ fissionessence

 

[On Puget Sound]

"Of COURSE I keep a tight grip on the dragon's neck. My head is spinning so, it's the only thing keeping me standing!"

 

[eriktheguy]

I looked up pinning strike, and the monster is only pinned for one turn. This implies to me that the monster is pinned down by the weapon. Stunning, killing, moving the character should not really affect this.

I thought that the power worked similar to pinning weapon from the adventurers vault. Have you guys seen that thing? broken...