• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Game design allow sub optimal class build. Confirmed by M Mearls

One_Shots

First Post
I encourage min/maxing and powergaming from my players up unto a point. For instance, making a wizard with an 8 intelligence and a Headband of Intellect is a step too far, but making a gnome illusionist with a high con most definitely isn't.

I also actively discourage making stupid characters that have no business adventuring. If you want an 8 Intelligence wizard because you want to play some dumb Rincewind wannabe, then you're not welcome at my table. As far as I'm concerned, that's just indulgent and destructive behaviour that relies on everyone else at the table to compensate for selfishness.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Valetudo

Adventurer
I believe it was a general guiding principle when designing most of the races. At least in terms of the Halfling, Elf and Dwarf, they have been created in such a way that, generally, if you choose a class where the attribute bonuses improve those you will use for the class, a lot of the racial abilities have greatly reduced impact or become entirely redundant as they are picked up as part of that class.

In general, each race should give you a good and meaningful bonus regardless of your class.


The only race that flat out fails miserably on this principle (not looking outside the PHB at least) is the Half-Orc whose primary attribute bonus is absolutely useless to all classes except for strength-based melee fighters and has a pretty potent ability that... can only trigger if you are a melee fighter... and the other ability allows you to escape being lowered to 0 HP which is... most useful to someone who is going to be on the front lines (in melee). It is true that imaginably any character could make use of an extra round after being reduced to 0 HP, but the first person to drop is almost always the "tank".

It is only that much worse that Strength is the second crappiest stat in the whole game, unless you are using encumbrance rules than basically Dexterity can just substitute in for Strength nearly every single instance you would ever be asked to make a Strength check plus gives you all the powerful abilities, improves your AC as well as your accuracy and damage in both melee and ranged (while Strength gives you only melee). Only attribute more worthless to an average random character is Intelligence.

In short, everything about the Half-Orc race design makes it incredibly powerful when matched with a handful of classes and pretty much the worse choice for half the classes in the game (including many things you might think an Orc should be able to be.)

So basically the caveat needs to be made... you can have a well-balanced character if you play a class that doesn't mesh with your race's attribute bonuses.... unless you are a half-orc.

But, hey-- given that playing a Half-Orc was just a suboptimal choice for every class in 1st through 3rd edition and all other races were superb at one or two classes and terrible at everything else... one badly designed race (presuming you were in fact designing on the principle that any race/class combo should be viable) should not wipe away that all the other races do a pretty good job of providing you a nice benefit regardless of your class.
halforcs make fine clerics or even bards if you like a valor bard.
 

cmad1977

Hero
That one of my players can effectively run a Paladin with an 8 Charisma tells me that this game is well put together.

Ha!
A self righteous jerk would fit that. Especially annoying if he's a good guy, because then not only is he a jerk, but he's probably right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I encourage min/maxing and powergaming from my players up unto a point. For instance, making a wizard with an 8 intelligence and a Headband of Intellect is a step too far, but making a gnome illusionist with a high con most definitely isn't.

I also actively discourage making stupid characters that have no business adventuring. If you want an 8 Intelligence wizard because you want to play some dumb Rincewind wannabe, then you're not welcome at my table. As far as I'm concerned, that's just indulgent and destructive behaviour that relies on everyone else at the table to compensate for selfishness.

You do you, but I'd like to make the point that even an 8 INT wizard can be very effective. Sleep don't care what your saving throw modifier is, and neither does magic missile or shield or any buff spell, or most (all?) rituals. And bounded accuracy means that even high-CR critters fail their saves sometimes, and you can roll high against high-AC critters, too.

Which isn't to talk you out of your position, just to point out that even at a pretty extreme end of the bell curve, there's a viable and effective character in there - you could play an idiot wizard or a wallflower sorcerer or a priest with bad judgement and still be A-OK.

AaronofBarbaria said:
Not only that, but it also confirms that those few folks around here that insist WotC has failed because the game is too easy for optimized characters as the suggestions for play are written are just having a difference of opinion on what the design goals should have been, rather than proving that WotC didn't nail their intended goals for the game.
I do think there's a strong overlap in the Venn Diagram of "people who think the encounter math is too easy" and "people who like to optimize their characters."

Part of the response to that is, I suppose, "Congratulations at being Good At D&D!"
 
Last edited:

Parmandur

Book-Friend
You do you, but I'd like to make the point that even an 8 INT wizard can be very effective. Sleep don't care what your saving throw modifier is, and neither does magic missile or shield or any buff spell, or most (all?) rituals. And bounded accuracy means that even high-CR critters fail their saves sometimes, and you can roll high against high-AC critters, too.



Which isn't to talk you out of your position, just to point out that even at a pretty extreme end of the bell curve, there's a viable and effective character in there - you could play an idiot wizard or a wallflower sorcerer or a priest with bad judgement and still be A-OK.





I do think there's a strong overlap in the Venn Diagram of "people who think the encounter math is too easy" and "people who like to optimize their characters."



Part of the response to that is, I suppose, "Congratulations at being Good At D&D!"


Personally, though I know it's not a big deal mechanically, would be tempted to use the multiclass limits on abilities for single classing as a table rule.
 

One_Shots

First Post
Which isn't to talk you out of your position, just to point out that even at a pretty extreme end of the bell curve, there's a viable and effective character in there - you could play an idiot wizard or a wallflower sorcerer or a priest with bad judgement and still be A-OK.
No you can't. And quite frankly, I find this attitude that you can selfish and disgusting.
 

Satyrn

First Post
pop2.gif
 

Tormyr

Hero
Ha!
A self righteous jerk would fit that. Especially annoying if he's a good guy, because then not only is he a jerk, but he's probably right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, really nice guy, but he was a half-gnoll (the child of the player's previous character in our last adventure and an NPC Gnoll Aasimar). So everyone had trouble relating with him, but the first couple sessions he rocked the Persuasion rolls.

Head cleric of the barracks: Why were you AWOL?

Paladin: We are on a mission from Heironeous. (rolls 19)

Head cleric: Well, I will get this sorted out. Your fellows need to go as well? I will arrange some extended leave. It is so good when someone receives a calling.
 


bedir than

Full Moon Storyteller
One of the things that confuses me about Optimizers is that I cannot understand that they think the only way to win DnD is through killing things.

Let's say the campaign is "Put the One Ring into the Fires of Mordor, or find another way to destroy it"
Sure, combat helps, but there are other solutions. We've all read them.

Maybe the campaign is "Someone controlled magic throughout your land and was oppressing everyone from being as great as they can be"
What's the optimized solution to that?

What's the optimized solution to "explore new worlds?"

Can you build me the perfect character for "A dragon kidnapped the princess. Please rescue her?"
 

Remove ads

Top