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D&D 5E Game design allow sub optimal class build. Confirmed by M Mearls

Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
Yeah, I'm not seeing where a dedicated healer is necessary in 5e. The PCs in my campaign go up to 7th level before another player joined the group with a cleric of healing.

It also looks like the game I'm going to play in isn't going to have a healer, either (warlock, fighter, sorcerer, & monk). Guess we'll just have to make the local temples rich by buying healing potions.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
You do not need a dedicated healer but you do need some amount of healing IMHO. Also spreading the healing around heaps so the burden doesn't fall on 1 player.

My PCs almost always have the healer feat in there somewhere. I often take it if I am a wizard or cleric so I can use my spells for something else and it is also great with the thief subclass as they can use a healing kit as a bonus action.

I had a Paladin in a 6 man part with 3 arcanist a Rogue and a Barbarian. DM gave everyone a bonus feat. No one else took any healing or inspirational leader feat and the Barbarian liked using frenzy a lot and then wanted me to heal him afterwards so in the end I stopped healing people because lay on hands only goes so far and I wanted to use hunters quarry over cure. Everyone took decisions to make thier character better so logically using my 15-20 points on helaing on myself was a better call than healing them especially when they threw away their hit points.

If you are doing sandbox or a themed game you can get away with no healer at all. If you are doing an AP though or other prepublished adventure you will likely need some.

If you are running around with a front line great sword character with 12 strength I would look on it as deliberately gimping the party and I would assume you are an idiot and/or one of those special players who is going to disrupt the group in other ways anyway. I could maybe see it with a MAD character that had spells as a backup like a Valor Bard or some cleric.

Even with the default array you should have a 16 in your prime attack stat or at least a 14 in the case of MAD type PCs. A 12 and you would have to be deliberately gimping yourself and the rest of the party with the exception of some spell caster builds. I would have a word with said player and if they got themselves or other players killed due to being a pumpkin I would be inclined to boot them from the group if they kept doing it. Yes I want my players to have fun but not at the expense of the others.

You do not have to build the worlds best DPM machine but deliberately slowing yourself down and taking a -2 to hit and damage for no discernible reason I can figure out fits in with being a disruptive player. Maybe you are the worlds greatest roleplayer and want to have a fighter with 16 intelligence but I would like to point out you could have two 16s in that case or go with a 16 and a 14 and still be a smart fighter with 14 intelligence instead. I have a smart fighter ATM that uses dex and intelligence+ green flame blade that might be sub optimal but he has not made it out right suck deliberately and he can do his job in a fight good enough so I do not care.

I also house ruled you get bonus languages from a high intelligence.

There are other RPGs that cater to that type of player or maybe other D&D groups.
 
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Redthistle

Explorer
Supporter
To all the DMs out there running games and making up their own stuff, I just want to say "Thank you!" for using your superpowers for Good.

— (((Chris Perkins))) (@ChrisPerkinsDnD) October 15, 2016

Tweeted in Sage Advice.
 
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OB1

Jedi Master
If you are running around with a front line great sword character with 12 strength I would look on it as deliberately gimping the party and I would assume you are an idiot and/or one of those special players who is going to disrupt the group in other ways anyway. I could maybe see it with a MAD character that had spells as a backup like a Valor Bard or some cleric.

Yes I want my players to have fun but not at the expense of the others.

You do not have to build the worlds best DPM machine but deliberately slowing yourself down and taking a -2 to hit and damage for no discernible reason I can figure out fits in with being a disruptive player. Maybe you are the worlds greatest roleplayer and want to have a fighter with 16 intelligence but I would like to point out you could have two 16s in that case or go with a 16 and a 14 and still be a smart fighter with 14 intelligence instead. I have a smart fighter ATM that uses dex and intelligence+ green flame blade that might be sub optimal but he has not made it out right suck deliberately and he can do his job in a fight good enough so I do not care.

Just encourage someone playing with a non combat optimized player to take GWM or SS and it will all balance out :) Party will be fine.
 

Satyrn

First Post
Just encourage someone playing with a non combat optimized player to take GWM or SS and it will all balance out :) Party will be fine.
rimshot.gif
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
I don't want to be forced to optimize any more than I don't want to be forced to not optimize. I just can't fathom the people on both sides of the table who do nothing more than shut down other people's fun in favor of their own.
I am in agreement with this - nobody should be forced into playing in a way they don't want to, and everyone at the table should be working together to have as much fun as possible.

I also agree that, while many of the folks that claim themselves to be optimizers are meaning that they are combat optimizers, the term optimization is broad enough to apply to anyone trying to realize the truest possible vision of their particular character concept (like how I viewed it as "optimal" for my use-whatever-is-on-hand fighter to take the two-weapon fighting style and dual wielder feat because those enabled the widest variety of weapons without not having the benefit of the fighting style apply)

And players really should not know how monsters really work and what their challenge is if they don't want to spoil their fun.
That entirely depends on the approach to the game. My group runs with full transparency - all the players, even those that have never cracked the Monster Manual, are provided relevant knowledge about the monsters their characters face - because our approach to the game is that it is a game first, so knowing how many HP are left on a particular creature isn't a breech of some kind of "4th wall" so much as it is the quickest way to convey the in-character perceivable information of how much fight that creature has left in it so the character, by way of the player, can make appropriately informed decisions.

Plus, as a person that sits behind the DM screen at a ratio of about 300 session to 1 spent as a player - I'd be really bummed out if my knowledge as a DM inherently spoiled my fun as a player, but I love playing when I get the chance, so that's obviously not the case.

Bolded for emphasis, I think this relies on an often illusionary player/DM divide.
Absolutely. At my table, the only divide between player and DM is that the DM gets the tie-breaking vote - otherwise we're all equals, and I think that works fantastically well compared to other approaches to the player/DM relationship that I have experienced.


They take a cleric who refuse to heal...
As others have mentioned, a cleric that doesn't heal can be a very strong contribution to the party. Assuming they are still spending spell slots and using their domain features, they could be providing buff spells or dealing damage, and in either case helping the party reduce amount of damage taken overall - and that's just as good, if not better, than providing healing.

...a strength based PC with 12 strength
In one of my campaigns I get to see a 12 strength melee-focused Cleric side-by-side with an 18 strength melee-focused Warlock - and I get to see the player of that melee-cleric land more hits than the warlock when in melee because a difference of 3 in their modifiers is completely overshadowed by the d20 roll. It just doesn't even matter in practice that the Cleric only has a 12 - fights aren't lasting noticeably longer than they would if he had an 18 or even a 20 strength.

To me a good DM doesn't punish his PCs or the players for not having a cleric in play but instead provides access to healing in some ways (potions, scrolls, magic items, NPC healer erc) or adjust encounters accordingly.
I find that especially true in 5th edition, since potions of healing are on the standard adventuring gear list at a very affordable price - so them not being easily available to the party is because the DM changed the default assumed availability for that to be so.

Even when I have a party with a cleric (or other healer) in play, I still have other healing options available - because I think "the cleric has to spend spell slots healing the party" is a terrible expectation to have, whether you are playing the cleric or just in a party with one.

You do not need a dedicated healer but you do need some amount of healing IMHO.
Between potions, hit dice, and a long rest, that's healing pretty much covered unless you are intentionally turning up the difficulty of each encounter beyond the default assumptions of the game.

If you are doing sandbox or a themed game you can get away with no healer at all. If you are doing an AP though or other prepublished adventure you will likely need some.
There is no inherent difference in those styles of game - you can get away with no healer at all in either. I know, because my group has done just that.
 
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One_Shots

First Post
In one of my campaigns I get to see a 12 strength melee-focused Cleric side-by-side with an 18 strength melee-focused Warlock - and I get to see the player of that melee-cleric land more hits than the warlock when in melee because a difference of 3 in their modifiers is completely overshadowed by the d20 roll. It just doesn't even matter in practice that the Cleric only has a 12 - fights aren't lasting noticeably longer than they would if he had an 18 or even a 20 strength.
This is an outright lie. Deny it all you want, that just doesn't happen and you're only saying it happens in order to bolster your point because the truth would prove you wrong.

Short of heavily weighted dice, what you're saying is so far-fetched and such an empirically unsound anecdote that the validity of your claim can satisfactorily be disregarded out of hand. You can't deny the facts of probability anymore than you can prove a claim to be able to exist by consuming nothing but air.
 

AaronOfBarbaria

Adventurer
You can't deny the facts of probability...
The facts of probability are exactly why it is possible that the events I've witnessed happened without weighted dice of any kind.

Having a 60% chance to hit doesn't mean exactly 60 out of any 100 attacks hit, nor does having a 75% chance to hit mean exactly 75 out of any 100 attacks hit.

And there is a range wherein both d20s used by these players roll within the expected statistical results (given standard deviation), but the player with a 75% chance is rolling on the lower end while the player with a 60% chance is rolling on the higher end, resulting in the exact scenario I've seen happen at my table because that's how probability works.
 

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