Game of Thrones 3.9 "The Rains of Castamere" (spoiler alert)

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Maybe Walder wants that retribution. He will not be around much longer in any event as he is terribly old, so maybe on some inner level he wants his family destroyed, after he is gone. Let the world burn and all that.

 

[billd91]

The Red Wedding works for a better story but I guess the essence of my quibble is that it doesn't fit logically with the character or even the established setting. Gods and magic are real in Westeros and the evidence of such is thick on the ground moreso than in our historical world... 700 foot tall walls, dragons only a few generations in the past, Atlantis level apocalypses, and folktales that probably have their origin in the not too distant past... but very few (if any I think if you look closey) of the major players are particularly superstitious or even religious. Breaking the salt bond is a sacred oath... murdering guests invites the worst wrath of the gods\Fate and not just men and Walder crosses that line for a few fees and marriages in a world where superstitious claptrap is real.

Heh, this is probably an area for me to put on the blinders but it does sort of break the quasi-medieval setting for me considering how weakly held faith and religion seem to be in the series.

One thing to keep in mind is that whatever magic and gods were around, they've been gone for some time. It's only recently that there's been much of a resurgence of actual magic. Magic north of the wall, the alchemists being more productive, dragons hatching, red priests and priestesses raising revenants or killing kings. The old gods, the Seven, they haven't done squat in Walder's lifetime. But power and influence, that's real. And if nobody wants to visit the Freys anymore, that's fewer mouths to feed. There are already so many...

 

[Grue]

Maybe Walder wants that retribution. He will not be around much longer in any event as he is terribly old, so maybe on some inner level he wants his family destroyed, after he is gone. Let the world burn and all that.

I've seen it argued that Martin's world is intrinsically amoral and nihilistic. That the only thing that matters is power and for the most part perverse sex. I'm not in that camp, but the lack of superstition, as well prevailing and strongly held religious belief that feels genuine seems a bit glaring to me in a world where it should reasonably exist.

Walder with a subconscious death wish for his family is an interesting take. If Martin intended that I'd have to put a bit more stock in the amoral and nihilistic camp, but right now I expect the novels to have a more conventional 'good' ending despite the unconventional turn or two rather than a Hamlet-esque to 'black' ending.

 

[Grue]

One thing to keep in mind is that whatever magic and gods were around, they've been gone for some time. It's only recently that there's been much of a resurgence of actual magic. Magic north of the wall, the alchemists being more productive, dragons hatching, red priests and priestesses raising revenants or killing kings. The old gods, the Seven, they haven't done squat in Walder's lifetime. But power and influence, that's real. And if nobody wants to visit the Freys anymore, that's fewer mouths to feed. There are already so many...

Much of the population (if not the majority) of our modern world are superstitious. Some extremely so. And even in the fairly secularized West most people went to church every Sunday before those trends started to really shift in the 1960s IIRC. Superstition, occultism, and other belief in magic was not uncommon in the upper classes even in the 19th and early 20th century... and it becomes more prevalent the further back you go.

The people in Westeros know dragons existed and they have a utterly ridiculously sized wall in the North, sorcerers cut off yingyangs and talk to demons...etc. It doesn't hang well that in this quasi-medieval world where magic actually exists and the evidence that it worked on the world is evident the rulers would be so secular in outlook. They have more reason to believe in sacred oaths that are enforced by divine punishment than we do. I'm not saying Walder Frey wouldn't host the Red Wedding but he seems far too cautious beforehand to risk everything for the small stakes of Tully land and an off marriage or two in exchange for a permanent stigma on the family name (if nothing else).

 

[Morrus]

Much of the population (if not the majority) of our modern world are superstitious. Some extremely so. And even in the fairly secularized West most people went to church every Sunday before those trends started to really shift in the 1960s IIRC. Superstition, occultism, and other belief in magic was not uncommon in the upper classes even in the 19th and early 20th century... and it becomes more prevalent the further back you go.

The people in Westeros know dragons existed and they have a utterly ridiculously sized wall in the North, sorcerers cut off yingyangs and talk to demons...etc. It doesn't hang well that in this quasi-medieval world where magic actually exists and the evidence that it worked on the world is evident the rulers would be so secular in outlook. They have more reason to believe in sacred oaths that are enforced by divine punishment than we do. I'm not saying Walder Frey wouldn't host the Red Wedding but he seems far too cautious beforehand to risk everything for the small stakes of Tully land and an off marriage or two in exchange for a permanent stigma on the family name (if nothing else).

I may be misremembering, but I'm fairly sure I've repeatedly heard the power players (as opposed to the peasants) say that they totally believe magic and dragons existed, but that they left a generation or two ago. In fact, I thought that was largely the premise of the setting - dragons and magic and stiff existed a while back, but the last dragon was killed in living memory and magic left about out the same time. That's why Dany's dragons are a big deal.

 

[RangerWickett]

Plus, consider that while people in power in the real world claim to adhere to certain ideologies, they toss them out the window for the sake of personal profit. When you're powerful enough, you don't think fate or the gods can hurt you.

Also, test test (because my own forum isn't working.)

 

[jonesy]

Also don't forget the

Spoiler

Maester's

conspiracy. There's evidence to suggests that not only have they been actively working to hush up information about magic and magical creatures, but that they may have had something to do with the last extinction of dragons.

A Feast For Crows:

Spoiler

(talking of Aemon) "Kill him? Sam asked, shocked. "Why?" "If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marwyn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?"

 

[MarkB]

The Red Wedding works for a better story but I guess the essence of my quibble is that it doesn't fit logically with the character or even the established setting. Gods and magic are real in Westeros and the evidence of such is thick on the ground moreso than in our historical world... 700 foot tall walls, dragons only a few generations in the past, Atlantis level apocalypses, and folktales that probably have their origin in the not too distant past... but very few (if any I think if you look closey) of the major players are particularly superstitious or even religious. Breaking the salt bond is a sacred oath... murdering guests invites the worst wrath of the gods\Fate and not just men and Walder crosses that line for a few fees and marriages in a world where superstitious claptrap is real.

Well, while we're on the subject of "gods and magic are real in Westeros", don't neglect to consider the fact that we saw Stannis's Red Priestess use king's blood to place a curse upon Robb, Balon Greyjoy and Joffrey. We know for a fact that the Lord of Light has real, tangible power, so when considering Walder Frey's motivations, it's reasonable to assume that he's at least partially being mystically influenced into becoming the instrument of Robb's doom, and that this influence is sufficient to overcome his caution and social restraint.

 

[Grue]

Well, while we're on the subject of "gods and magic are real in Westeros", don't neglect to consider the fact that we saw Stannis's Red Priestess use king's blood to place a curse upon Robb, Balon Greyjoy and Joffrey. We know for a fact that the Lord of Light has real, tangible power, so when considering Walder Frey's motivations, it's reasonable to assume that he's at least partially being mystically influenced into becoming the instrument of Robb's doom, and that this influence is sufficient to overcome his caution and social restraint.

<Must resist temptation to scavenge through books> I don't remember that part but it sounds right. And it feels a bit more realistically plausible for the setting than the lords somehow knowing that if they break the most inviolate sacred oath they don't risk extreme supernatural punishment.

Offhand I think it was a Maester and a warlock in the House of the Undying that linked magic with the dragons but I don't think it was known outside of those circles. Tywin Lannister would be the most likely lord to make some comment about the unreliability\uselessness\claptrap of magic but without paging through the books I'm not certain. Still I doubt the major lords of Westeros know with any certainty magic no longer works\exists. In any case, considering the setting, the fact fakers\petty magicians are plying their wares, and that Westeros shows no sign of ever going through it's own Age of Enlightenment to refute superstition (which actually has some truth in the world), it might just be a flaw in an otherwise fairly well imagined world.

The Red Priestess' kings blood curse works for me. Walder Frey just seemed like too much a fence sitter to risk such a big play for a comparitively small potatoes payout otherwise.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Also don't forget the

Spoiler

Maester's

conspiracy. There's evidence to suggests that not only have they been actively working to hush up information about magic and magical creatures, but that they may have had something to do with the last extinction of dragons.

A Feast For Crows:

Spoiler

(talking of Aemon) "Kill him? Sam asked, shocked. "Why?" "If I tell you, they may need to kill you too." Marwyn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. "Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?"

Small bit of info I picked on when I re-read the books back-to-back last year. In the first book, Mirri Maz Duur - the witch woman who supposedly was going to save Khal Drogo for Dany - told Dany and Ser Jorah that she learned her trade for several different sources, including a Maester name Marwyn... The, Marwyn's name doesn't come up again until A Feast for Crows.