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Garrote Oriented Rogue Build
- Thread starter Stormborn
- Start date
Human, as its hard to be a halfling garrote artist (have to lug a stool around)
Skill foci in move silently and hide.
Perhaps a weapon focus feat, although with the touch attack it's a bit of overkill really with a decent strength score.
The major tactic is "Don't be seen, sneak up behind an opponent, use garrote." I'm glad this is going to be a one shot, as every time I've considered using that item, I give up, finding it so strict in execution that it becomes repetitive really quick.
Skill foci in move silently and hide.
Perhaps a weapon focus feat, although with the touch attack it's a bit of overkill really with a decent strength score.
The major tactic is "Don't be seen, sneak up behind an opponent, use garrote." I'm glad this is going to be a one shot, as every time I've considered using that item, I give up, finding it so strict in execution that it becomes repetitive really quick.
Derulbaskul
Adventurer
Are there any rules for the garrotte other than those in Song & Silence?
As far as I know the only official rules for Garrottes are from Song & Silence. They are even refered to in Dragon #316 under the espionage article. Speaking of you may want to look at the Garrote Ring from that article as a weapon of choice.
What is the basic concept she has for the character? Why a Garrote artist... thug, assassin, point man?? Kill or incapacitate? Any magical side?
As for standard build based on Rogue, obviously Humans are hard to ignore for the bonus feat and size has already been mentioned. However with the suggestions below you could use any race.
I would go either Rogue or Figher/Rogue depending on how effective you want to be at certain aspects. More skills = All Rogue, better at fighting = either fighter 2 or 4 depending on how good at combat. Keep in mind grappling is not easy. High Strength is more favorable than High Dexterity for this build as all Grappling is based on Strength. An Intelligence 13 will also be required if you use the suggestions below.
Mechanics: Since the Garotte action is a Grappling maneuver and draws an attack of opportunity, some choices to look at are:
PHB
Important Combat Feats
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: (unless the DM allows Garrotte as a Rogue weapon which I think Song & Silence does?)
Combat Expertise & Improved Trip: Allows you to trip the opponent 1st without an AoO and at a +4 bonus, then once they are down, as your free attack, you can begin the Grapple with bonuses for them being prone. As a side effect you can use your Combat Expertise in non-garotte situation to overcome the lack of Dexterity and up your AC by giving up Attack bonus.
Improved Grapple: Removes the AoO for Grappling
Optional but useful
Weapon Focus: Grapple (or Garrote specifically if allowed)
Improved Intitiative: Need to get the drop on the opponent
Quick Draw: Draw weapon as free action instead of move action
Power Attack: Once the victim is grappled and if you know it will be easy to hold them, drop attack bonus for yet more damage.
Stealthy: +2 Hide and Move
Feats from other Sources that come to mind but I dont have books handy for specifics so not sure...
Song & Silence
Chink in the Armor
Expert Tactician (One additional partial action {instert standard action for 3.5} against opponent who has been denied DEX mod to AC) - You may attack as many times as you can during a grapple.
Complete Warrior
Clever Wrestling (improves grapple?)
Close-Quarters Fighting
Sord and Fist
Death Blow (standard action coup de grace - needs improved intitiative)
Dirty Fighting (adds 1d4 damage)
Personally if I were creating a Garotte killer - I would go Human Fighter2/Rogue4.
This gives you Sneak +2d6, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, +5 BAB, Decent Skills and saves, and 6 feats.
For the feats I would go with following (assuming Rogue gets Garrote as a class weapon): Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Expert Tactician, Improved Intitiative and Death Blow.
Just my few thoughts on it.
What is the basic concept she has for the character? Why a Garrote artist... thug, assassin, point man?? Kill or incapacitate? Any magical side?
As for standard build based on Rogue, obviously Humans are hard to ignore for the bonus feat and size has already been mentioned. However with the suggestions below you could use any race.
I would go either Rogue or Figher/Rogue depending on how effective you want to be at certain aspects. More skills = All Rogue, better at fighting = either fighter 2 or 4 depending on how good at combat. Keep in mind grappling is not easy. High Strength is more favorable than High Dexterity for this build as all Grappling is based on Strength. An Intelligence 13 will also be required if you use the suggestions below.
Mechanics: Since the Garotte action is a Grappling maneuver and draws an attack of opportunity, some choices to look at are:
PHB
Important Combat Feats
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: (unless the DM allows Garrotte as a Rogue weapon which I think Song & Silence does?)
Combat Expertise & Improved Trip: Allows you to trip the opponent 1st without an AoO and at a +4 bonus, then once they are down, as your free attack, you can begin the Grapple with bonuses for them being prone. As a side effect you can use your Combat Expertise in non-garotte situation to overcome the lack of Dexterity and up your AC by giving up Attack bonus.
Improved Grapple: Removes the AoO for Grappling
Optional but useful
Weapon Focus: Grapple (or Garrote specifically if allowed)
Improved Intitiative: Need to get the drop on the opponent
Quick Draw: Draw weapon as free action instead of move action
Power Attack: Once the victim is grappled and if you know it will be easy to hold them, drop attack bonus for yet more damage.
Stealthy: +2 Hide and Move
Feats from other Sources that come to mind but I dont have books handy for specifics so not sure...
Song & Silence
Chink in the Armor
Expert Tactician (One additional partial action {instert standard action for 3.5} against opponent who has been denied DEX mod to AC) - You may attack as many times as you can during a grapple.
Complete Warrior
Clever Wrestling (improves grapple?)
Close-Quarters Fighting
Sord and Fist
Death Blow (standard action coup de grace - needs improved intitiative)
Dirty Fighting (adds 1d4 damage)
Personally if I were creating a Garotte killer - I would go Human Fighter2/Rogue4.
This gives you Sneak +2d6, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, +5 BAB, Decent Skills and saves, and 6 feats.
For the feats I would go with following (assuming Rogue gets Garrote as a class weapon): Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Grapple, Expert Tactician, Improved Intitiative and Death Blow.
Just my few thoughts on it.
Last edited:
Stormborn
Explorer
Khaalis, the level of information in your posts simply amazes me. Thank you again.
The character concpet is essentially point/scout for a group of Mercs sent into a dungeon like enviroment to do something (details not forthcoming from DM yet.)
Right now I think the garrote idea may be falling out of favor, with leanings toward a more standard sneak attacking fighter type build.
The character concpet is essentially point/scout for a group of Mercs sent into a dungeon like enviroment to do something (details not forthcoming from DM yet.)
Right now I think the garrote idea may be falling out of favor, with leanings toward a more standard sneak attacking fighter type build.
Stormborn
Explorer
As of our last discussion, she is leaning towards an Elf Rogue as the DM seems to have indicated that low-light vision would be a good idea and the DEX bonus. Describing her style is a little difficult, but as it applies to a one-shot: she likes killing things. She sees her character as the scout of the group, disabling traps and taking out sentries before the main force moves in. Any suggestions would be appretiated.
Stormborn said:
Well in that case, its best to make a build using the advantages at your disposal. It sounds as if there is a specific point to this one-shot mission oriented game so I will assume there is a specified Foe which of course makes the choices all the more easy.
My first suggestion would be a similar build to previous. Since she has already chosen Elf going Ranger2/Rogue4 Archer makes a great infiltrator that can "kill stuff" really well. The elf choice hurts a bit in feats but its other advantages could help. The only problem might be Mutliclass penalty since the Elf, even though by its racial abilities lend it to Ranger have "Wizard" as the Favored class. Something I personally hate.
Elf:
+2 Dex, -2 Con: The loss of CON is going to be a bit rough but as long as she remains 10+ it wont be a liability. The Possibility for a very high Dex (depending on how you are doing abilities) is worth the exchange.
Immune to sleep: Worthless by this level as she is already immune based on HD
+2 vs. Enchantment: Still very useful if a bit limited
Low-Light Vision: Not shabby but not exactly what the DM may be making it out to be. If this is going to be a monster oriented dungeon crawl or a darvision species foe, there may be no light available at all to use this with. If this is the core concept advantage of the character make certain to be able to use it to your advantage. An elf's best friend in that situation is a Continual Flame or Permanent Light item.
Weapon Feats: Useless unless of a lesser class. Will have helped get through the 1st level of Rogue.
Skill Bonuses: The +2 racial bonus to Listen, Spot, and Search are perfect for an infiltrator/scout. This will allow you to exceed your normal level cap. The ability to locate secret doors more easily cant hurt either (though on a personal note I never understood this ability from a Nature Oriented race...).
Ranger2/Rogue4
BAB: +5 (Dex will be the primary stat here so at least +8)
Base Saves: F+4 / R+7 / W+1 (Reflex will be at least +10 if not higher)
Skills: (Rogue First) Minimum Skill Points = 68 + (INTx9)
Specialize in Bluff, Hide, Move, Listen, Spot, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock (then Survival if plan on tracking), spend the rest at will.
Base Abilities: Sneak Attack +2d6, Trapfinding & Trap Sense +1, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Favored Enemy*, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat Style**
Favored Enemy: Since this is likely a specified mission its going to be an actual boon to the Ranger to have a specifically chosen Foe. The +2 to Bluff (feint), Listen, Sense Motive, Spot and Survival will work great for the infiltrator/scout build as they Stack with the racial bonuses. The +2 Damage on all weapon damage rolls is nothing to sneeze at either.
Combat Style - Archery!: This is key. Grants Rapid Shot = Two shots at a minumum of +6/+6, higher with a Dex higher than 16. Thats 2 Shots that can do 1d8+2d6+2 (ave 12) per shot assuming a Foe and sneak, more if she uses Composite and has a Strength bonus (and Point Blank adds more).
Feats
Here is where it gets tricky. You will only have 3 feats to work with so it makes it much harder, and limits us from choosing great feats with worthless Pre-Requisite feats.
Some options to look at depending on what you are going for.
PHB
Point Blank: +1 to Attack & Damage rolls within 30' (brining it up to +7/+7 min). Since its a Dungeon, and the character is a stealth machine - this shouldnt be too hard to manage and take full advantage of.
Precise Shot: Ify. If she will be mostly fighting on her own as an advance lead - not necessary. However, if she plans to fight with the Bow "in general melee", it comes in useful to not suffer the -4 penalty.
Stealthy: +2 Hide and Move - probably unnecessary with the number of Skill points to spend but would raise you 2 above the levels normal max bonus.
Combat Expertise & Improved Feint: (Requires a 13 Intelligence which also guarentees more Skill points). Allows a Bluff check to be made as a Move Action. This allows her to make a Bluff check to Feint in combat to remove their Dex Bonus and thus make them open to Sneak Attack. As a side effect you can use your Combat Expertise in melee situation to overcome the lack of armor and up your AC by 5 giving up 5 Attack bonus.
Personally I would go with Point Blank, Combat Expertise and Improved Feint. This is if she plans on needing to bluff. If not, and a lot of group combat will be the order of the day, probably Improved Initiative and Precise Shot so that she can fire into melee at those who are flat-footed to her.
If you use 3rd party sources there are a ton of other Archery and Sneak Attack feats to choose from.
If she would prefer melee over range switch to Combat Style - Two Weapon, and focus on Dual Rapier or for a less cheesy style Rapier and Short Sword. Replace Point Blank with Weapon Finesse. This will give the same focus on Dexterity to attacks to absorbe the two weapon penalty. Overall attacks would be at a minimum +4/+4 (higher with a Dex higher than 16) and doing 1d6+2d6+STR+2 and 1d6+2d6+1/2STR+2 (assuming a foe and sneak). This has a higher chance for Criticals - especially if you have access to Keen, but also a slightly higher agrogate damage Only if she has a high Strength too.
Hope that helps.
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