Gating in a Balor and a Solar

[juliaromero]

If the players use Gate to summon a Balor, I understand they can force it to obey them for like 17 rounds or whatever their level is. What happens after that though?

First, does the Balor just automatically return? Or is it still around but free?

And in either case, would it be reasonable for the Balor, being a nasty evil aristocratic sort, to be pissed off at the player who summoned it and try and kill them in revenge? I assume if this is the case, they of course shouldn't get any experience for killing it at that point?

How much is Gate like Summon? Does the creature wink out in an antimagic field, for example?

My players are going a little bit nuts with Gate and it's starting to seem a bit powerful. So far they have been mostly summoning Solars ... a CR 23 creature that is pretty tough. Yeah, it costs them 1000 XP, but it's not too hard for that to pay off in big battles or against tough foes. It makes a lot of otherwise tough fights pretty simple for them.

I assume they can't force the Solar to cast a Wish spell, for example? Seems like a metagame cheat to do that ... pay 1000 xp instead of 5000 xp? But how would you rule on something like that since it seems like according to RAW they could force it to cast a Wish spell for them.

Assuming the party is "good" and forces the Solar to help them against something evil, would there be any reprocussion from the Solar?

 

[darthkilmor]

Assuming the party is "good" and forces the Solar to help them against something evil, would there be any reprocussion from the Solar?

Forcing a sentient creature to do your bidding, a solar no less, certainly doesnt sound like a Good act. Sounds like magic-induced slavery, and the solar is probably going to get pretty tired of it and treat the party as the evil-doers pretty soon Now if they Asked the Solar to help them in their quest against evil, then that would probably be ok.

 

[cmanos]

I'd have them gating in the sale solar time after time after time. After a lot of this, the Solar is gonna get really PO'd at the characters unless they are usning it for purposes derectly in line with its alignment.

No they don't get XP for killing a Gated creature AFAIAC.

The balor would definitely be pissed off, and the characters just may find themselves 'gated' into the Abyss do to the Balor's wishes sometime too. I'm sure demons with that much time and power on their hands could research a spell that could force a creature from the PMP to the Abyss and force them to do their bidding.

Scene: Characters suddenly find themselves on a battlefield standing with an army of celestials. Across the plain from them is an army of demons and devils. The solar they so frequently summon turns to them and says "Time for payback."

 

[Khairn]

Just a couple of things to keep in mind with these spells ...

When using Gate, the caster has to "concentrate" while commanding the creature to act on his behalf. So for as long as the player is concentrating he is also a tempting target. Also, the caster has to have more levels than the balor / solar has hit dice in order to command them. What would happen if htey called a particularly powerful balor with more Hit Dice? The spells gates in a creature, and not necessarily a creature with only x # of hit dice.

Also, balors and solars are often lieutenants for even more powerful beings. Those beings might not be very impressed with a party that summons one of his servants who is performing an important duty.

Dont be afraid to have their constant gates and summons cause them nasty reprecussions.

As for Summons, the choice of creatures is limited and shouldn't cause as much trouble as gate. And dont forget to make certain that the summoner can communicate with the creature. The spell does not provide that ability automatically.

 

[Starglim]

If the players use Gate to summon a Balor, I understand they can force it to obey them for like 17 rounds or whatever their level is. What happens after that though?

First, does the Balor just automatically return? Or is it still around but free?

If the creature is under control, it departs at the end of the spell. If not, it can stay as long as it pleases and still use its one-time return ticket when it wants to.

And in either case, would it be reasonable for the Balor, being a nasty evil aristocratic sort, to be pissed off at the player who summoned it and try and kill them in revenge? I assume if this is the case, they of course shouldn't get any experience for killing it at that point?

The creature must leave when dismissed and is not entitled to a reward or other consideration. If it later decided anyway to use its own abilities to come after the summoner, that would be a separate encounter, not an effect of the spell, and would be eligible for XP.

How much is Gate like Summon? Does the creature wink out in an antimagic field, for example?

A calling spell is not like a summoning spell, but closer to a teleport. There's a separate section on Calling spells in in the Magic chapter. Its duration is instantaneous and the creature appears in its normal state, not as a summoned creature, except that it's compelled to obey the caster.

My players are going a little bit nuts with Gate and it's starting to seem a bit powerful. So far they have been mostly summoning Solars ... a CR 23 creature that is pretty tough. Yeah, it costs them 1000 XP, but it's not too hard for that to pay off in big battles or against tough foes. It makes a lot of otherwise tough fights pretty simple for them.

I assume they can't force the Solar to cast a Wish spell, for example? Seems like a metagame cheat to do that ... pay 1000 xp instead of 5000 xp? But how would you rule on something like that since it seems like according to RAW they could force it to cast a Wish spell for them.

The second clause of the spell begins, "If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service". Arguably casting a spell that has an XP cost is a more involved service even though it's within the 1 round per level duration, and therefore the caster must provide a fair trade.

Assuming the party is "good" and forces the Solar to help them against something evil, would there be any reprocussion from the Solar?

The party are casting a large number of Lawful and Good spells. I think there would be alignment and religious consequences to this. The gods that govern solars might soon come calling on the party for service in return, much as a paladin is subject to the call of the gods. Note that the spell description references lesser planar ally which is exclusively a cleric spell.

 

[andargor]

A calling spell is not like a summoning spell, but closer to a teleport. There's a separate section on Calling spells in in the Magic chapter. Its duration is instantaneous and the creature appears in its normal state, not as a summoned creature, except that it's compelled to obey the caster.

Just a minor nitpick and tangent. A gate is an interdimensional gateway, not extradimensional travel. It is a Conjuration spell without a Teleportation descriptor. Hence, it is unlike teleport and is not blocked by conditions or spells which inhibit extradimensional travel, such as dimensional lock.

We now return to our regular scheduled programming.

EDIT: Oh crap, I got it wrong: dimensional lock DOES block gate. Well, nobody's perfect...

Forms of movement barred include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, etherealness, gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like or psionic abilities.

Andargor

 

[Rackhir]

A calling spell is not like a summoning spell, but closer to a teleport. There's a separate section on Calling spells in in the Magic chapter. Its duration is instantaneous and the creature appears in its normal state, not as a summoned creature, except that it's compelled to obey the caster.

There is an important difference between gate and summoning spells, that you didn't clarify enough. A summoned creature is not permenently slain when killed, a gated creature's true self is there so if it dies. It is permanently dead. While solars and balors are not singular creatures they are powerful and important enough, that if the party started getting them killed on a regular basis, SOMETHING is going to get upset. Also they are creatures of substantial influence themselves and will not take well to being treated as lackies or errand boys.

I would recomend that you require something along the lines of a True Name to gate a major extra-plainar creature like them in any case. They shouldn't just be able to cast Gate and summon something that powerful and important without doing something more than just learning a new spell.

While that XP penalty isn't a major drain, it is going to add up over time, to the point that the wiz or cleric will be a level or two behind the other char. Especially if they have also been making magic items

 

[Bad Paper]

Scene: Characters suddenly find themselves on a battlefield standing with an army of celestials. Across the plain from them is an army of demons and devils. The solar they so frequently summon turns to them and says "Time for payback."

This is an excellent idea, but it begs a question: would the PC(s) receive XP for this encounter? I mean, since they are the solar's spell effect, and the bad guys would not receive any XP for defeating the PC(s)...

 

[IcyCool]

This is an excellent idea, but it begs a question: would the PC(s) receive XP for this encounter? I mean, since they are the solar's spell effect, and the bad guys would not receive any XP for defeating the PC(s)...

Umm, if you bring a creature to you with a calling spell and whack it, I'm pretty sure you get the XP. Conjuration (Calling) brings the actual creature, and if it dies, it's dead. Conjuration (Summoning) brings creatures (or copies of creatures, or creatures made out of mystical kool-aid) that don't actually die. I would assume the reverse would be true. Except that I don't believe PCs can be gated and commanded. I think they qualify as unique beings.

 

[azmodean]

I believe PCs are subject to gate spells at least, if not summons. My understanding is that "Unique creature" is something like Tiamat or the Tarrasque where only one creature of that kind exists, period.