Geas/Lesser geas queries

[Percivellian]

I have some questions regarding the Geas/Quest spells. First, here are the SRD entries:

Geas, Lesser
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature with 7 HD or less
Duration: One day/level or until discharged (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
A lesser geas places a magical command on a creature to carry out some service or to refrain from some action or course of activity, as desired by you. The creature must have 7 or fewer Hit Dice and be able to understand you. While a geas cannot compel a creature to kill itself or perform acts that would result in certain death, it can cause almost any other course of activity.
The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.
If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level. A clever recipient can subvert some instructions:
If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, it takes a –2 penalty to each of its ability scores. Each day, another –2 penalty accumulates, up to a total of –8. No ability score can be reduced to less than 1 by this effect. The ability score penalties are removed 24 hours after the subject resumes obeying the lesser geas.
A lesser geas (and all ability score penalties) can be ended by break enchantment, limited wish, remove curse, miracle, or wish. Dispel magic does not affect a lesser geas.

Geas/Quest
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Language-Dependent, Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 6, Clr 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Target: One living creature
Saving Throw: None
This spell functions similarly to lesser geas, except that it affects a creature of any HD and allows no saving throw.
Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest. Additionally, each day it must make a Fortitude saving throw or become sickened. These effects end 24 hours after the creature attempts to resume the geas/ quest.
A remove curse spell ends a geas/quest spell only if its caster level is at least two higher than your caster level. Break enchantment does not end a geas/quest, but limited wish, miracle, and wish do.
Bards, sorcerers, and wizards usually refer to this spell as geas, while clerics call the same spell quest.

My questions come as a result of looking at the difference between these spells, and wondering why Geas/Quest seems to be less powerful than Lesser Geas in some respects. Yes, it has no saving throw or HD limitation, but ability damage to each ability score/day seems significantly more powerful than 3d6 damage/day. Is this damage subject to DR? If so, what's to stop a living creature with DR from just waiting out the duration of the spell (if it's open ended), or waiting until the effect can be removed, if it really doesn't want to go through with the action? That would only mean making saving throws versus being sickened, and tending to relatively minor damage, particularly if the creature has DR or Fast Healing. Why would you prefer to use Quest instead of Lesser Geas, except for when the target has more than 7 HD? Is there a balance issue I'm unaware of that would explain this difference?

Thank you in advance for your insights,
Percy

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I always wondered about that, myself. I think they left something out, maybe that you cannot heal that damage (which doesn't care about damage reduction, by the way, or energy resistance, for that matter).

 

[Thanee]

If so, what's to stop a living creature with DR from just waiting out the duration of the spell (if it's open ended), or waiting until the effect can be removed, if it really doesn't want to go through with the action?

The spell effect.

The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.

Well, the target could, of course, let someone help with that... That is certainly possible.

If the subject is prevented from obeying the lesser geas for 24 hours, ...

Note: This last part does not apply to simply not following the given instructions, because this simply is not possible.

Can't tell you why the penalty is "weaker" for the higher level spell, tho.
At least the higher version can kill the target, so it's also somewhat tougher.

Bye
Thanee

 

[azmodean]

Instead of taking penalties to ability scores (as with lesser geas), the subject takes 3d6 points of damage each day it does not attempt to follow the geas/quest. Additionally, each day it must make a Fortitude saving throw or become sickened. These effects end 24 hours after the creature attempts to resume the geas/ quest.

Looks to me like it is saying the target takes the damage once a day, and it does not go away until 24 hours after resuming the quest. That's how I'd run it anyway. So eventually the target would die from the accumulated damage. It's definitely unclear though.

 

[BogusMagus]

3.0 Version

The 3.0 version of Geas was nastier.

" Additionally, each day he must make a Fortitude saving throw or sicken.
A sickened creature moves at half his normal speed and suffers -4 penalties on both Strength and Dexterity. He heals damage at one-tenth his normal rate and cannot benefit from any magical healing effects. A sickend creature must make a Fortitude save each day or become crippled. Once crippled, the subject is effectively disabled (as if he had 0 hit points) and can't choose to take strenuous actions.
These effects end 1day after the creature attempts to resume the geas/quest."

I don't know if this was changed on purpose or not.

I wondered about this spell when we updated our campaign (at the time) to 3.5,
because one of the Characters had Geas on her and broken it.

 

[Percivellian]

Thank you for your responses, they have enlightened me regarding DR and the nature of the spell effect. That much is clear.

I am still unsure about the incurable nature of the damage, though that would definitely be a stiffer penalty. Any character who reaches -1hp from this damage would be doomed to die (being unable to carry out the Quest while unconscious, and unable to benefit from healing), barring the chance that someone casts remove curse, wish, or miracle upon them.

Neither of the spell descriptions say that the listed remedies for the Geas are the only remedies for the penalties the spell causes when the target is prevented from carrying out the task. Maybe they should. Otherwise, if Bob comes under the effect of a Geas to kill his brother, what's to stop Bob's father from locking him in the family's estate, and treating the penalties with restoration or even simple cure spells (Assuming he has the resources to do so)? If that were the case, Lesser Geas would be more costly to combat, and for any creature with 7 or more HD, the average 9 damage from the Quest spell could easily be remedied, or mostly remedied with a night's rest.

I had a Geas/Quest cast on a player's character last session, before I really familiarized myself with the finer details of the spell, so these clarifications are quite helpful. Incurable damage seems to make sense, and can be read that way easily enough, though I think clarifications regarding restoration and other healing are in order for those spells.

Thank you again,
Percy

[EDIT] To BogusMagus: I see. Perhaps this is a conversion problem. Sickened in 3.5 simply states that the character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks, and nothing about the effects on healing, which makes a rather large difference. Thank you.