Gelatinous Cube issues

[Otterscrubber]

So in KotS we faced a GC and it was a pretty neat fight but raised some questions with regard to movement and sharing space. The GC can move into your square and make an attack, if it succeeds you are engulfed by it. We had some questions when it misses though, is the PC pushed a square or is it "sharing" the square now with the GC?

 

[Yaezakura]

Well... I'm not sure how it's worded in KotS, but the MM lists the Engulf power as such:

Engulf (standard; at-will) ✦ Acid
The gelatinous cube attacks one or two Medium or smaller targets; +8 vs. Reflex (automatically hits an immobilized creature). On a hit, the target is grabbed and pulled into the cube’s space; the target is dazed and takes ongoing 10 acid damage until it escapes the grab. A creature that escapes the grab shifts to a square of its choosing adjacent to the cube. The cube can move normally while creatures are engulfed within it.

 

[npiccini]

Unfortunately, the MM doesn't really rule on this issue, but it raises a good point. I would rule that there is an implied push or slide if the gc misses its attack. I can't see how the two could occupy the same square. that doesn't make any sense and breaks 4E rules on sharing squares since the cube is large and i would assume most PCs are medium hence unable to occupy the same square

 

[Mort_Q]

I'm not sure what's missing... on a hit the PC is pulled into the GC's square... on a miss it isn't. No sharing squares implied anywhere.

 

[Goobermunch]

I'm not sure what's missing... on a hit the PC is pulled into the GC's square... on a miss it isn't. No sharing squares implied anywhere.

Yeah, I'm not seeing the issue. It can only pull someone into its square on a hit. If it misses, it can't pull.

--G

 

[Otterscrubber]

Hmm, I musta misread it, I don't have my 4e MM handy at the moment so I'll get home and see if I'm mistaken. For some reason I seem to recall that the cube can move into a square to make its engulf attack. It's possible I'm smokin crack though......

 

[Krensus]

I ran this section of the module a few nights ago and had similar issues with the cube. The problem with engulf is that it treats the attack as part of a movement-it moves 3 squares and anyone it moves through, it attacks versus their reflex.

I ruled it this way, and it was probably wrong, but made for a fun encounter. Because it is a cube that occupies a 2x2 area, it can hold 4 characters inside it at a time. If it engulfs, they are considered "grabbed" and can attempt to escape normally. If the cube decides to move, it must make the normal grab checks to do so vs. everyone's fortitude, and if it fails against anyone, that person is no longer grabbed. Because the party consisted of 5 players, I also ruled that they could attack it from within it's square, even if they were engulfed.

Now I have a lot of problems with this, listed below.

1. What happens if it's moving east and the character in it's northeast quadrant escapes the grab, but the person in the northwest quadrant does not? This would be greatly clarified by knowing if the cube can actually contain multiple characters or if I was just playing it incorrectly.

2. Do ranged and area attacks made while engulfed provoke attacks? I assume yes.

3. What exactly do powers that push/pull/slide do to the ooze if you are inside of it?

To be honest, we were only playing with the PHB, DMG and the module, so perhaps some of these questions are answered in the MM. This monster, if I played it correctly seems very mean spirited and frankly would have slain the players if they hadn't noticed it beforehand and it had been able to sneak up on them as the module suggests.

So I guess I'm looking for answers as well. The encounter ended after a lot of people took a lot of acid damage, but for my own satisfaction I'd like to know how this guy's supposed to be played.

 

[Surgoshan]

Engulf isn't part of a move action or anything like that. It's a standard action. The reason "see also Engulf" is listed next to its speed is that there could be a question about the cube's movement while it has creatures engulfed. The text of the ability answers the question with "the cube can move normally".

 

[DrVital]

For some reason I seem to recall that the cube can move into a square to make its engulf attack. It's possible I'm smokin crack though......

I checked both. The confusion comes from KOTS:

"The gelatinous cube can move up to 3 squares, entering enemies' spaces. When it enters a creature's space, it makes an attack against that creature."

Both the MM and KOTS say, "An engulfed creature is pulled into the gelatinous cube's space and grabbed".

The MM also says "A creature that escapes the grab shifts to a square of its choosing adjacent to the cube." That's not in KOTS.

I think the entering enemies' spaces info is no longer current, although you could keep it, and then let the player choose where they come out of it misses... Certainly could be more fun, although it would make flanking easier for the players.

I'm actually looking forward to this part of the dungeon. I've got a square highball glass that's going to make a perfect mini...

 

[Krensus]

I checked both. The confusion comes from KOTS:

"The gelatinous cube can move up to 3 squares, entering enemies' spaces. When it enters a creature's space, it makes an attack against that creature."

This is precisely where the confusion comes from. In the module, it lists the Engulf ability like this, but in the MM it explains it much better. I've noticed a few other such issues with the module, such as the +2 dagger at the end only adding 1d6 on a critical hit. Seems like during the writing of the module, some rules were not set in stone yet, leading to some contradictions.