D&D General Gen Con, Daisy, Sleeping in the Lobby and All That

[Gradine]

I don’t think you realize how this conversation, and your demands that people talk about it only in the way you find acceptable, can come off as controlling and hurtful to people with past experiences.

There‘s a huge difference between asking people to be respectful of your identity, and trying to control the language they use to express themselves. I only speak for myself, but there can be a lot of pain in recalling being told how to feel and what to say.

You know what, that's absolutely fair, and I sincerely apologize.

Let me pitch you with a hypothetical. Say there was a term or phrase that happened to be exceptionally triggering to you, that also happened to be exactly how I most often describe my own experiences. I would, 100%, stop using that terminology in your presence (which, considering how prolific we happen to be, would be the entire forum). Because I can find other ways to express myself that don't hurt you, or anyone else. And that is all I'm asking in return.

And I want to emphasize the asking. I've been more forceful on this point, in the past and in this thread, in a way that is clearly triggering, and I apologize to you from the depths of my heart over it. I honestly hasn't considered that up till this point, and really that's on me. I am always learning, and I am loathe when I have to do so at the expense of someone I genuinely like and respect. It sucks and I'm so, so sorry.

So I will ask, and continue asking, when and if that is something that I need. And if that is simply too big of an ask on your part, I will happily excuse myself. I will not demand.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You know what, that's absolutely fair, and I sincerely apologize.

Let me pitch you with a hypothetical. Say there was a term or phrase that happened to be exceptionally triggering to you, that also happened to be exactly how I most often describe my own experiences. I would, 100%, stop using that terminology in your presence (which, considering how prolific we happen to be, would be the entire forum). Because I can find other ways to express myself that don't hurt you, or anyone else. And that is all I'm asking in return.

And I want to emphasize the asking. I've been more forceful on this point, in the past and in this thread, in a way that is clearly triggering, and I apologize to you from the depths of my heart over it. I honestly hasn't considered that up till this point, and really that's on me. I am always learning, and I am loathe when I have to do so at the expense of someone I genuinely like and respect. It sucks and I'm so, so sorry.

So I will ask, and continue asking, when and if that is something that I need. And if that is simply too big of an ask on your part, I will happily excuse myself. I will not demand.

Apology accepted. And I apologize as well- obviously, this is is one topic that bothers me a lot. I have nothing but respect for you.

 

[RoughCoronet0]

I feel I need to clarify my position here a minute, because honestly the word "embarrassed" itself isnt what bothered me and isn't what I was responding to. It was the full phrase "The reason [reporting sexual violence] doesn't happen is because the victims are embarrassed about the situation".

It was the idea that embarrassment was the only, or even just the main reason, why survivors don't report they assaults. This was wrong, and triggering, so I said my piece, and felt the response to it made perfect sense. I even "liked" the post!

That's a level of nuance that gets lost in the forum sauce when tempers flare and accusations get thrown about, and I take my own share of responsibility in misrepresenting myself in this.

It may not be the main reason for you, but it sure as heck was one of the main reason why I spend YEARS keeping the sexual abuse I suffered from as a child and as an adult a secret, never wishing to speak on what had happened to me. It doesn't help that when I first tried to finally speak up about it, I was mocked and shamed for feeling the embarrassment I felt for having suffered the abuse, for waiting so long to speak up on it, and even for not expressing my trauma in a "correct" way, among other disgusting things people have said to me.

When I saw the direction that this thread started to go down (I honestly partially regret reading any of this at all after how upset I got, which I also feel really embarrassed and angry about too), it reminded me of the mocking, the shame, and the embarrassment that I felt. I wanted to post something before but knew at the time I would have been too angry to express myself in a respectable or respectful way. Even now I am trying not to let my emotions rule me as I type this. I even downvoted a post of yours earlier (which is another point of embarrassment I feel) before reading later posts that have allowed me to better understand your position and how this has also affected you. I am glad I continued to read your posts though.

I understand now how triggering that description is for you (and possibly others that have also suffered or had friends and loved ones suffered), I simply felt I needed to express how triggering it was, at least with how it was coming off in the posts, to be told how wrong I was for expressing my own experiences as such, or how others have explained what others have expressed to them as such. I will try to be mindful of this going forward if I feel the desire to post more in the discussion.

 

[MGibster]

As odd as it sounds, when investigating sexual harrassment allegations at work, one of the more common reasons I hear for not reporting initial incidents is some variation of, "I didn't want anyone to get in trouble." Some people feel like they're doing something wrong by reporting bad behavior and feel as though they're at fault for someone getting fired. I like to tell them, "If this person gets into trouble it's because of what they did not what you said."

 

[SteveC]

Thanks to those of you who chased @SteveC off. /sarcasm
Not appreciated or a valuable contribution. They were actually articulate and caring and had value to add to these discussions. As pointed out by others, your pedantry is not particularly valuable.

How about we try to show respect for others and treat them like we would hope to be treated in-turn.

Not chased off, just made me realize this was distracting from discussing a real issue with a real person who is suffering real pain.

I'm just old enough to realize that some arguments have no point, especially with people who don't know you. My account here stretches back to the old days with Eric and the SteveC from that era has learned a lot since then.

 

[Kitsune]

A thing I keep not seeing noticed is that Daisy didn't attack a woman. Daisy attacked three women. That we know of.

RekItRaven
Daisy on the other hand kept leaning in to kiss me. I looked at her and then she leaned in to kiss me on the lips. I pulled away and she grabbed me harder. She kept getting closer as I tried to pull away. She was trying to kiss my neck, my ear, whispering things that were awful like "No one cares that we're here" or "I just want to taste your lips" - she kept commenting on how my friends across the table wouldn't mind

Superdillin
Daisy started grabbing my head with both hands and forcing, against literally all my strength, to kiss me. The only thing I was able to do was barely turn my head enough to give her my cheek. That happened over and over, because I was physically unable to break her grip on my head, and when I did, she would put her arm around my shoulders and hold me there.

Litte Red Dot
After she got undressed she crawled INTO BED WITH ME and proceeded to lay too close putting her arm and leg over my body. Daisy is a larger person than me, and when I told her “no” and asked for her to make space in the bed I was told that “12 Drink Daisy needed cuddles” and that I would just have to deal. I felt completely shocked as she then put more of her body over mine pinning me to the bed.

GenCon has still so far as I know made zero statements about multiple women being physically and sexually assaulted at the con. As far as Daisy's consequences, well. One company said they would no longer work with them, and they posted an apology briefly before deleting their twitter account. That isn't striking me as much in the way of consequencing for someone who by all rights should be sitting in a jail cell right now. And I do feel very confident that, had a cis man done even one of the three things being alleged, GenCon would've had a press release out overnight announcing a lifetime ban and companies would be lining up to disown him instead of the deafening silence that we've got.

 

[Scribe]

naughty word yikes.

 

[MGibster]

And I do feel very confident that, had a cis man done even one of the three things being alleged, GenCon would've had a press release out overnight announcing a lifetime ban and companies would be lining up to disown him instead of the deafening silence that we've got.

It's not entirely clear to me that Gen Con, LLC needs to make any statement about Daisy. From what I can tell, her actions occurred off site at private events/spaces rather than any place Gen Con had any obligation or power to monitor and regulate behavior. If I were managing Gen Con, I don't know if I'd want to establish a precedence for monitoring areas outside of what I had control over. And had Gen Con acted swiftly by issuing a ban, I have no doubt we'd hear complaints about how quick they were to punish a transgender woman for her transgressions when they would have let a cis male's behavior slide for much longer.

 

[Kitsune]

The two accounts of Daisy attempting to forcefully kiss unwilling people seem to be at an end of con party, but it's unclear whether that was actually a con-sanctioned event or just attendees hanging out somewhere with booze. The hotel room, however, was apparently provided by the con for staff to use, so the actions in there were absolutely in a convention space. Of course the con couldn't be expected to have security people hanging out in the hotel rooms to regulate behavior, but assaulting women in the rooms the con rented should definitely be of interest to the convention.
Frank Mentzer got banned from GaryCon for being a douchebag to people on the Internet, not for anything ever occurring in or even near the con itself AFAIK, so it seems odd to me that GenCon would throw up its hands and be all, "Oh gee, the sexual attacks didn't happen in the middle of the dealer room, so our hands are tied! Can't keep this person out."

 

[MGibster]

The two accounts of Daisy attempting to forcefully kiss unwilling people seem to be at an end of con party, but it's unclear whether that was actually a con-sanctioned event or just attendees hanging out somewhere with booze. The hotel room, however, was apparently provided by the con for staff to use, so the actions in there were absolutely in a convention space. Of course the con couldn't be expected to have security people hanging out in the hotel rooms to regulate behavior, but assaulting women in the rooms the con rented should definitely be of interest to the convention.

As far as Gen Con is concerned, I think it's kind of important to them where these things occurred. And you might want to rethink your position on whether or not a private hotel room is con space, because that might have unfortunate implications if you think it through all the way. Was Daisy put up by Gen Con or was she put up by a company that was attending the con?

Frank Mentzer got banned from GaryCon for being a douchebag to people on the Internet, not for anything ever occurring in or even near the con itself AFAIK, so it seems odd to me that GenCon would throw up its hands and be all, "Oh gee, the sexual attacks didn't happen in the middle of the dealer room, so our hands are tied! Can't keep this person out."

I didn't mean to imply that Gen Con couldn't ban Daisy, but I don't know if I'd want to get into the habit of trying to regulate what people do outside of my convention space. It seems odd to me that we would expect Gen Con to do something about a situation that might have nothing to do with them other than everyone having attended the con. Mentzer was banned because he was a liability whereas it doesn't seem necessary to ban Daisy because industry types have already cut ties with her. Their not going to invite her to Gen Con next year.