Generation: rolling vs. point buy

[Dracomeander]

You misunderstood. I encourage my players to think of other things that would enhance the versatility and capabililties of their characters without having to resort to stat boosters.

However, the mechanics of the game seems to encourage the players to acquire the stat boosting items to meet the challenges of surviving the higher levels of play. If you look at the advancement examples of the iconic characters, they are all loaded down with stat boosters at the higher levels. To me that is saying, 'we want your attributes to start at a level that is not survivable later.'

 

[Chacal]

When I search some inspiration in stats, then I need some random element in their generation
(if the random part is very important, it might end in significant differences in overall power between PCs)

When I don't use stats for inspiration, then point buy helps me to get closer to what I want to play
(But the number of points has to be adjusted to a level the players and DMs are comfortable with)

Two PCs with the same array of stats are interpreted differently in these two cases:
- in the first case they look similar and force me to search inspiration elsewhere or reroll
- in the second, stats are less important in the comparison, because they're a part of the expression of a concept, on not a part of its creation.


I'm more often in the second case, but not always. In the case of NPCs, I use a little bit more of random. However, if the npc is supposed to wander with the pcs, I generally retrofit him in a number of points (fewer than PC's)


Chacal

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

... To me that is saying, 'we want your attributes to start at a level that is not survivable later.'

Fair point. Beginning stats are simply not good enough for higher level play and that leads us to ask why so?

Our characters stats are assumed to need enhancers, inherent and level boosts. These are from sources that deserve a bit of attention:
1) By Level - a gradual increase representing the growth of raw capability given many experiences. Slow but guaranteed progression.
2) Inherent - sourced from very hard to get wishes, miracles and expensive tomes. Very difficult & expensive to aquire. This is also a mechanic for the DM to use for special rewards.
3) Enhancers - the cheapest and largest bonus available. This is part of the D&D magic item legacy where higher level characters are marked by the treasure they acquire.

If D&D granted one set of stats at character creation that were good enough for all levels then we wouldn't have character growth in this field. The CR system could be recalibrated to take a new baseline of expected stats into mind, so this is not inconceivable. Ditching the enhancers, whether they are incorporated or not, will in effect eliminate a favourite treasure find.

Back to 25pt buy - this is a weak pt buy build I admit, but it creates a massive contrast between low and higher level characters. This, imo, accentuates the character development by making any increase more meaningful: e.g. increasing str15 to str17 is more pronounced than str17 to str19 - one gives a 50% increase in the bonus while the other is 33%.

 

[Jefuri no Oni]

When I first started playing D&D we rolled our stats because that's what it said to do in the PhB. After the first 3 sessions we switched to point buy.

We switched because we all had a character concept in our heads that we wanted to play and rolling stats only got in the way of realizing our character concepts. This was true of people who rolled too high as well as low. Want to play a curious and unwise reckless gnome, too bad you rolled two 18's and nothing lower than 14. Want to play a monk, too bad you rolled a 17 and the rest of your stats are 8-12, I guess you have to play a wizard.

To those of you who say point buy creates cookie cutter characters that's more of an issue with your players than with point buy. We have had plenty of wizards with higher charisma than constitution, we have even had people buy odd numbered stats, there is nothing preventing you from doing that. Yes some of our players only buy even stats but that's their choice, why get hung up over whats on their character sheet. Furthermore it has the added benefit of enabling players to create their characters between sessions since the DM doesn't have to watch every single roll. This way the maximum amount of time can be spent each meeting gaming rather than rolling.

There's a reason that no other modern day game system such as GURPS or Storyteller uses random stat generation. Rolling ability scores is an outdated game mechanic that should have died with Thaco, 18/00, stat requirements to get into classes, and duel classing.

 

[Cameron]

When I first started playing D&D we rolled our stats because that's what it said to do in the PhB. After the first 3 sessions we switched to point buy.

We switched because we all had a character concept in our heads that we wanted to play and rolling stats only got in the way of realizing our character concepts. This was true of people who rolled too high as well as low. Want to play a curious and unwise reckless gnome, too bad you rolled two 18's and nothing lower than 14. Want to play a monk, too bad you rolled a 17 and the rest of your stats are 8-12, I guess you have to play a wizard.

To those of you who say point buy creates cookie cutter characters that's more of an issue with your players than with point buy. We have had plenty of wizards with higher charisma than constitution, we have even had people buy odd numbered stats, there is nothing preventing you from doing that. Yes some of our players only buy even stats but that's their choice, why get hung up over whats on their character sheet. Furthermore it has the added benefit of enabling players to create their characters between sessions since the DM doesn't have to watch every single roll. This way the maximum amount of time can be spent each meeting gaming rather than rolling.

There's a reason that no other modern day game system such as GURPS or Storyteller uses random stat generation. Rolling ability scores is an outdated game mechanic that should have died with Thaco, 18/00, stat requirements to get into classes, and duel classing.

Considering that I think the Storyteller system is utter crap when it comes to anything other than handwaving away stats and abilities (a greater chance to *fail* something the "better" you are at it)... No. Just no...

I'd offer both. Roll 4d6-l or 32 point buy, the player's choice. That way, he can gamble or not as he wishes.

 

[KingCrab]

Point buy. What I'm trying to avoid is players feeling cheated that they were unlucky in their original rolls. Specially if the campign is going to least for years, it isn't fair that one player started and continued at a disadvantage to another just because of what was rolled before the game even began.

Best for everyone to start out with the same opportunities and then see what happens.

 

[Darkness]

Considering that I think the Storyteller system is utter crap when it comes to anything other than handwaving away stats and abilities (a greater chance to *fail* something the "better" you are at it)... No. Just no...

IIRC, the chance to botch went up a bit with higher dice pools in pre-revised oWoD Storyteller (this was fixed in revised); the chance of failure decreased just as it ought to. Or were you thinking of a different version and/or issue?

 

[Satori]

I despise party imbalance due to stats, both as a player and as a DM.

I've been in games where stat imbalances made halfling rogues better warriors than the half-orc barbarian.

I've been in games where spellcasters were unable to get higher level spells because they rolled poorly.

It just isn't fun when your fellow player has 3+ 18s, and someone else has 12-14 as their highest stat.

I prefer point buy or array.

 

[Cameron]

IIRC, the chance to botch went up a bit with higher dice pools in pre-revised oWoD Storyteller (this was fixed in revised); the chance of failure decreased just as it ought to. Or were you thinking of a different version and/or issue?

Just before the latest version 3 came out. I think Mummy just came out then. Can't remember exactly. I try to wipe that memory from my mind...

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Holy thread necromancy Batman! This thread was started so long ago that I had to check and see if I'd already voted years ago. And it turns out ... I hadn't.

For the record, I hate rolling with a passion. Point Buy all the way.