Generic Classes -- In play

[joela]

Anyone ever use the Generic Classes rules option in UE? Thinking of using it with some houserules for a limited campaign. Thanks in advance!

 

[Croesus]

My group experimented with our own version - 3 generic classes, class abilities as feats, etc.

A few observations:
1. The "Expert" didn't really work well. In combat situations, he was too weak and fragile, feeling left out. In non-combat, he tended to shine to the exclusion of everyone else. Part of this is a fundamental problem with how 3.x handles skills, especially non-combat skills. If I were to work with generic classes again, my three would be Warrior, Mage, and Warrior-Mage. I'd up the skill points for all classes, so everyone would have the chance to shine in either combat or non-combat situations.
2. My group is a bit lazy. We much prefer to work with a character creation program. However, generic classes weren't supported by any (and may still be unsupported). I modified HeroForge to accomodate our changes, but it was a kludge and didn't really address the issue.
3. Generic classes don't eliminate the inherent balance issues with 3.x. Spellcasters still tend to outshine the Warrior and especially the Expert, except at the lowest levels.

All that said, I like the idea. I often feel a class is too much of a straightjacket. One reason my favorite system is Hero/Champions.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

RE: HERO

From past experience, I know that with a a bit of work, HERO can be used to emulate other game systems. The reason to do so? Sometimes the mechanics of HERO give you unexpected benefits.

For instance, while HERO isn't a perfect RPG- no system is- its balance between powers and skills is much better than D&D's. Build some package deals for the races and classes you want in HERO, and your Fantasy HERO game will play a LOT like D&D, but you won't notice a gap between the efficacy of your "Rogue" and your "Wizard."

And I'm sure you can say the same of other toolbox systems like GURPS or M&M.*



* M&M has a FRPG version called Warriors & Warlocks which essentially does this.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Double post.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Back on point, what, precisely, is motivating you to consider the Generic classes?

The reason I ask is twofold:

1. You may be able to achieve that goal a different way within D&D.
2. Certain 3.X games like Warriors & Warlocks or even True20 may suit your purposes even better, and as D20 based games, your learning curve won't be too scary.

In fact, the True20 classes are structured similarly to the generic classes, but are done in such a way that they more closely resemble D&D base classes in their feel. You can't directly use them, I don't think, but they may help guide you in what kind of mods you could make to the Generic classes to help with the balance issues Croesus brings up.

 

[paigeoliver]

The main problem with Hero is that the 3d6 system it uses (particularly with heroic characters) requires combat values to stay artificially close to each other and makes bonuses extremely valuable.

A standard 10 DEX Orc needs to roll a 6 or less to hit a PC with a DCV of 8 (which is pretty normal for a heroic warrior, even a starting one). That orc only has an 8.3 percent chance of hitting, while the warrior has a 98 percent chance of hitting him.

That is just with a difference of 5 in combat value. While in d20 a difference in 5 between attack bonus and armor class just swings it from 50 percent to 75 percent or 25 percent.

RE: HERO

From past experience, I know that with a a bit of work, HERO can be used to emulate other game systems. The reason to do so? Sometimes the mechanics of HERO give you unexpected benefits.

For instance, while HERO isn't a perfect RPG- no system is- its balance between powers and skills is much better than D&D's. Build some package deals for the races and classes you want in HERO, and your Fantasy HERO game will play a LOT like D&D, but you won't notice a gap between the efficacy of your "Rogue" and your "Wizard."

And I'm sure you can say the same of other toolbox systems like GURPS or M&M.*



* M&M has a FRPG version called Warriors & Warlocks which essentially does this.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The main problem with Hero is that the 3d6 system it uses (particularly with heroic characters) requires combat values to stay artificially close to each other and makes bonuses extremely valuable.

IME, that's not much of an issue- there are so many sources of combat bonuses that you don't have to rely on stats alone. Skill levels, for instance, are much cheaper than dex points...(see below).

The REAL issue with HERO is that people with system mastery could squeeze about 33% more power out of a given amount of points than a newbie by knowing where breaks occurred in the formulae. Especially with derived stats.

6Ed dumped that issue with the stats, at least. Now you pay for all stats, just like you lay for all talents, skills, and powers.

 

[paigeoliver]

Yeah, it was difficult not to just automatically give heroic characters a 20 strength since the derived stats gained from it were worth more than the 20 strength even cost.

And a 33 percent boost is conservative if the campaign uses powers. Just intelligent use of multipowers and the like can just about double your points (for example, since desolid characters cannot interact with the physical world by default you should put your desolidification power in a multipower with your main attack, saving you 80 percent of the cost of desolidification (90 percent if you already had your primary attack in a multipower).

Then intelligent disadvantage use could redouble that savings.

IME, that's not much of an issue- there are so many sources of combat bonuses that you don't have to rely on stats alone. Skill levels, for instance, are much cheaper than dex points...(see below).

The REAL issue with HERO is that people with system mastery could squeeze about 33% more power out of a given amount of points than a newbie by knowing where breaks occurred in the formulae. Especially with derived stats.

6Ed dumped that issue with the stats, at least. Now you pay for all stats, just like you lay for all talents, skills, and powers.