Gestalt and Monster Class Question

[Belzbet]

Lets say I want to run a gestalt character that has taken as one of its classes a monster class from say savage species. Lets say a character wanted to be an astral deva/bard. My question concerns saving throw progression.
At level 5 an astral deva/bard is going to get full BAB (+5 BA) and ALL good saves (+4 to FORT REF and WILL; at level 5 the deva progression given in savage species has 5 HD and outsider HD gives Full BAB and ALl good saves). and 6 the deva is pinged an HD. But, if I was an astral deva/Bard according to gestalt rules I would gain my Bard HD. This 6th Bardic HD will give an increase to REF and WILL so my Base saves will now be +4 FORT +5 REF and +5 WILL. Now when I get to level 7 my Astral devas 6th HD. How would you guys determine base saves at this point? A non-gestalt astral deva has +5 to all saves at level 7. But, at level 7 the astral bard already has +5 to REF and WILL. At level 7 in this case would you give the Astral Bard +5 FORT +6 REF and 6 WILL OR +5 FORT +5 REF +5 WILL (ONLY increasing the FORT save by +1 not all saves)?

I realize that allowing a PC to essentially take a monster class with little to no penalty would make monster classes ALOT better but hey gestalt is supposed to be high powered. ANd I know this is why it is not advisable to use monster classes with gestalt characters but I still want to know what you think.

 

[the Jester]

He would have base saves of +5 to all.

 

[Tovec]

Astral deva is a race right?
Racial HD, as far as I know, aren't class levels and do not get applied the same way as class levels.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm
The first line is "characters essentially take two classes at every level".
(Note: "Classes", not two "levels" or "HD".)

So, treat Astral Deva as a RACE not a class. Apply Level Adjust as normal, and advance using two classes when you start to advance. At least that is my thinking based on a quick glance of the rules.

 

[the Jester]

He's using a Savage Species-style progression for the astral deva class.

 

[Tovec]

I missed that the savage species part the first time, thanks.

As far as that goes though, it is still clearly a race. But it is a race you can buy into. It is a race that you grow in levels, it doesn't work with multiclassing and shouldn't really work with gestalt.
Gestalt is supposed to work with classes only.

Just because the version from that book allows you to purchase your way up to being a full form of that creature doesn't really mean it is a class. (If it were a class it would have 1 HD per level.)

This is the reason why the question is even being asked at all. And why I think it doesn't have an answer. The savage species levels are an ECL and he is matching it with class levels of bard. *shrug* I don't think it has an answer because:
A. It was never designed to work with gestalt, and
B. I don't think it DOES work with gestalt at all.

Astral Deva is a RACE, gestalt works with class levels. I don't see another way around it. Sorry, but that is still my answer, even knowing the race comes from the savage species doesn't change my answer here. Take the race, then start taking TWO class levels at the same time. I'm going to stop replying now because I've said everything that I think needs saying, if OP wants more someone else is going to have to help him because it doesn't seem possible for me.

Similar in my opinion:
OP: Hey forum, Im trying to get this program that only works on mac, to make sense on my PC.
Me: It doesn't work on PC. Sorry.
Jester: Its a special one that works on the older versions of mac which were closer to PC.
Me: Okay, but it isn't designed to work on PC and doesn't obey the basic PC mechanics. I still think you should not try to use it with PC and if you want to use it try a mac (or something that does work with PC).

 

[Jackinthegreen]

The fact that it's mentioned means that it's assumed to work for his particular situation, thus we should work on the assumption that it does work regardless of whether we think it does or not, with the caveat that it might not work for all situations. Gestalt is open-ended enough that it's really up to the DM on how to do things, but due to some oddities I go into below it's probably not a good idea to use monster classes with LA in the progression.

To the OP: Are you using fractional BAB and/or saves? If you're not familiar with those rules, it's basically saying that BAB is either 1/2 per level for poor progression, 3/4 per level for medium, and 1 per for good. For saves it's 2+ 1/2 per level for good saves and 1/3 per level for bad ones. Using fractionals tends to work much better with gestalt because you don't have to worry about a situation like whether fighter 1/sorcerer 19//wizard 20 gets full BAB because sorcerer and wizard both have 1/2 per level.

If you are using fractionals, your saves at 5th will be F4/R4/W4, and BAB would be +5, but at 6th you'd only get the good progression on R and W thanks to bard, so your saves would be F4+5/6/R5/W5. The fort save is like that because you had 4+1/2 at 5th level, but since your 6th had a +1/3 it becomes 4+1/2+1/3 which is 4+5/6. Likewise, since bards are +3/4 your BAB would become 5+3/4 at 6th level. At 7th level you'd get your full +1/2 on saves, so they'd be F5+1/3 / R5+1/2 / W 5+1/2. Your BAB would go up by 1 and become 6+3/4. At 8th you'd get +1/3 on F and +1/2 on R and W saves again, so they'd become F5+2/3 / R6 / W6, and your BAB would be up 3/4 again for 7+1/2.

If you aren't using the fractional system, at 6th you would still have +1 Ref and Will for F4/R5/W5 from bard. Depending on how one interprets the rules your BAB would either go from 5 to 6 since Bard gets +1 that level, or you'd go down to +4. The assumption would be the former of course, but figuring out what happens past that is making my head spin so I won't do it.

Suffice to say that if you're going to use a monster progression class with LA on one side, you are far better off using the fractional system because it makes things simpler and saves on headaches.

 

[NekoIncardine]

Fractional Saves is the easiest way to calculate progressions in Gestalt play, regardless of whether you're dealing with monster classes or just the fairly common double-multiclassing.