Gestalt characters from UA with Savage Species

[Torx]

Page 72 of Unearthed Arcana contains rules about creating gestalt characters by taking the "best-of-both-worlds" from two character classes for use in a high-powered game. My question is in regards to using the monster class variant in Savage Species in combination with gestalt characters.

For example, how would one go about creating an imp/rogue? That is, at each level, through 7th, the character gets the best stats (HD, Saves, BAB, etc) from the imp class and the rogue class and both classes' special abilities. The hiccups I've encountered include:

• The monster class has it HD staying the same from one level to the next. In this example, from 4th-7th level the imp has 3d8 hit die. Meanwhile, a rogue character would go from 4d6-7d6 in that same time span.

• Feat progression. According to Savage Species, monster classes do not gain feats for the first and every third hit die thereafter, not by monster class level. So a 7th level imp would have two feats whereas a 7th level rogue would have three.

• Ability score increases. Similar to feat progression, ability scores increases much differently with a monster class. In this example, a 7th level imp would gain +4 Dex & +2 Wis, whereas a 7th level rogue would be close to just the second increase in an ability of choice.

Is this an exercise in futility: two variant rules too far out of agreement with each other?

 

[Camarath]

Is this an exercise in futility: two variant rules too far out of agreement with each other?

Monster classes are balanced assuming that the character is lossing out on HD dependant bonuses. Thus allowing one to gain the bonuses of HD via a normal class and still gain the extra bonuses of a monster class would allow some normal/monster class builds to be very powerful, much more so than a normal gestalt build. This is the similar to the reason why I would not allow a gestalt War Hulk.

I think you could make it work if you remove HD from the monster classes and rebalanced their level progressions so that the features of one monster class level are equal to the class features of one normal class level. This would more than likely increase the number of levels in each monster class. I would guess by about an average of 1.5x the current number of levels.

It might also be interesting to have allow gestalt dual monster class characters using the better of the classes HD/level progression as well as the better HD, saves, skill points, and BAB (based on gained HD not level of course).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

You have to dismantle thoes monster classes into monster HD and LA.

For example, we have a Psionic Mindflayer/Psychic Warrior in a campaign were we have Gestalt charakters. now if you let him have his 15-level monster class as one and PsyWar as the other, he would still have 15 HD at level 15, for though he doesn't always get HD for Mindflayer, he does get some for PsyWar.

So LA must be making him lose the HD and dependant benefits (skill points, feats, ability increases) for both classes! The only question is whether he gets the full LA. In our case, we decided to cut down the LA by half (he actually still has the full LA, since he has two class levels each level, he can pay two LA instances at a time). Rebuild the Monster class from there, with the new "gestalt LA" and give him only class levels for the other class when he gets a monster HD.

 

[Torx]

In our case, we decided to cut down the LA by half.

I'm sorry, but I'm not hip to the acronym. What does LA mean? I was utterly confused by this.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I'm sorry, but I'm not hip to the acronym. What does LA mean? I was utterly confused by this.

LA = Level Adjustment. That's levels where you don't get anything (at least no BAB, BSB, HD, Skills, Feats) to balance your overly powerful race.

For example, an Aasimar (LA +1) Paladin 5 has (more or less) as much XP as a Human Paladin 6.

The monster classes in Savage Species incorporate these level adjustments into the advancement of the class: on some levels, you won't get a HD and added benefits (see above), but you do get some other powers of the race.

For example, let's look at the Medusa monster class, SS p.185. It has 10 levels, but you only get 6HD, which means that it has a LA of +4. At 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th level, they don't get a HD, they don't get a better BAB or Saves, and no skill points (and they get feats at 1st, 4th and 10 - when they have 1, 3 and 6 HD).

This LA, including loss of HP, is a weakness to balance out the powerful abilities the race gets. Now, if you make a Gestalt Medusa with, say, Fighter as other class, and ignore the LA, they would get a HD (and added benefits) at all 10 levels. Sure, on 4 of them, they'll only have the better of one class, not of two, but they will 10 HD on level 10, even with such a powerful class.

So on those levels where he doesn't get a HD from his monster class, he may not get a HD (meaning class level) from the other class, either.

The only question that remains is whether you'll retain a LA of +4 (robbing him of a total of 8 levels/hd) or half it (so he'll lose 4 levels/hd, but due to the Gestalt arrangement this will put him 2 gestalt levels behind). Or something else. In our group, whe give him half the LA (rounded up) and look whether that works.