Getting healing right

[Endroren]

You know, I picked up H1 and does it concern anyone else that the typical 1st Level Fighter has approximately 114 HP? And that weapons don't do more damage? I mean picture this...two first level dwarven fighters sit down to duke it out. They each have their full 31` HP, and compliment of 12 healing surges of 9 points per surge.

1st Level Dwarven Fighter:
AC 17
To Hit: +6
Dmg: 2d6+3

It will take approximately 30 ROUNDS before someone falls! This is nuts. And then think about this:

The party gets up in the morning at 6 and hits the dungeon by 8am. They adventure for 2 hours in the morning exploring the dungeon until 10am, but they can plow through like a lunatic because you have all these surges. Then they rest for 6 hours until 4pm, and plow through again for 2 hours without worry because you got all 12 surges back, and stop at 6pm and sleep for the night.

Not even counting clerics and healing potions, this means the typical fighter has (effectively) around 200 HP at FIRST LEVEL. By 10th level the average fighter will have even more, coming out with around 300 HP base with surges, 600 HP if he adventures as I described.

Seriously, I want to give this a chance but I smell "broken" all over this.

Or maybe it is just a different style of play, one that is all about smashing stuff with no real fear of death.

 

[ThirdWizard]

They each have their full 31` HP, and compliment of 12 healing surges of 9 points per surge.

You can only use Second Wind once per encounter. Therefore, you can only gain the benefit of your healing surge (at least barring special powers such as lay on hands or healing word) once per encounter.

 

[MindWanderer]

In reality, that fighter isn't nearly as indestructible as you make him sound. In the previews I played, he went down a couple of times. It's not a game of attrition, where you need to retreat for the day because you're low on HP, it's a game of survival where you need to focus on one fight at a time.

 

[Endroren]

You can only use Second Wind once per encounter. Therefore, you can only gain the benefit of your healing surge (at least barring special powers such as lay on hands or healing word) once per encounter.

You're right. I misread that section.

Still, while that changes the dynamic somewhat, I don't believe it changes it that much. Effectively, everyone in the party gets 12 Free Healing potions every 8 hours (2 hours in, 6 hours resting). Picture your typical 1E,2E,3E,3.5E game if the GM gave you a free healing potion for every encounter.

And really, if you're going to do that, what not give everyone more HP? *shrug*

PS: I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. The reason I care so much about this is that I've had VERY high hopes for this version and this whole healing surge thing has me very worried about whether they really thought everything through.

 

[Counterspin]

Because giving people more HP just makes combat longer, whereas the surge system gives you a way to interact with you HP during combat, regardless of class, and allows for simple scalable healing.

And they have thought everything through, the problem is that they have different goals than you for healing. The answer to every "why did they do x" systemic problem is simple. That's where they decided that playability met realsm. Where they draw that line is indeed closer to playability than it was in 3e, but there you have it.

 

[Mort_Q]

... if I can be that bold.

Apparently I can't. {sigh}

 

[Andur]

Endoren, the general rule is one second wind per encounter, you "get back" all healing surges ONCE PER DAY after min. 6 hours of rest.

So in your fighter example, the fighters really only have 50% more hit points than listed if they are fighting by themselves. (Assumes they have the ability or feat which allows two Second Winds per encounter)

As far as damage output, well it seems fairly flat, until you start seeing all the conditional powers kick in, especially the either you or opponent are bloodied and the combat advantage ones.

I don't see it as a problem, it should "extend" the adventuring day, as even though a DM wouldn't gve out that much "free" healing each day, parties would just rest and heal up until full again anyway...

 

[Kordeth]

You're right. I misread that section.

Still, while that changes the dynamic somewhat, I don't believe it changes it that much. Effectively, everyone in the party gets 12 Free Healing potions every 8 hours (2 hours in, 6 hours resting).

You can only rest once per 24 hour period.

Picture your typical 1E,2E,3E,3.5E game if the GM gave you a free healing potion for every encounter.

You mean, like, for example, a game where you were freed from the shackles of having one player stuck playing the healbot?

And really, if you're going to do that, what not give everyone more HP? *shrug*

Because giving more hitpoints removes the tactical considerations inherent in having healing set up as a commodity, both in terms of actions (if you or your leadery ally can't get off an action that allows you to heal, you don't get those extra hp) and as a resource (healing surges have to be managed, forcing you to weigh the pros and cons of keeping your hp topped up or having more reserves for the big fight, plus critters can sometimes steal your surges).

PS: I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. The reason I care so much about this is that I've had VERY high hopes for this version and this whole healing surge thing has me very worried about whether they really thought everything through.

They really thought everything through. 4E's healing system works great in actual play.

 

[TwoSix]

PS: I'm not trying to be a jerk about this. The reason I care so much about this is that I've had VERY high hopes for this version and this whole healing surge thing has me very worried about whether they really thought everything through.

Trust me, this has been one of the most chewed-over mechanics on every message board I've seen. The thought has been there.

Just think of HPs as "encounter endurance" and healing surges as "adventure endurance." Healing surges are the mechanic that allow 4e to make every encounter one where you can pull out all the stops without worrying you won't be able to go on in the adventure.

 

[Endroren]

It's not a game of attrition, where you need to retreat for the day because you're low on HP, it's a game of survival where you need to focus on one fight at a time.

You've always focused on one fight at a time. That hasn't changed. But I guess what I'm wondering is if a 5 minute rest heals 25% of your HP, why WOULDN'T you retreat and heal up? Unless your GM doggedly pursues you with an endless swarm of wandering monsters until until you drop, a smart party can easily back out of a dungeon to restore their surges.

This just strikes me as a very odd game dynamic and seems to undermine the very danger of adventuring. Sure, a really big monster that can swat the life out of you with a couple hits is still dangerous but that's always been true. But in this case you start every combat fresh as a daisy.

So where did the gash in your chest go? What happened to the arm the owlbear crushed under its claws?

And what happens at high levels? How powerful will your foes have to be to threaten a 10th level fighter with 85 HP 12 20 HP surges per day? And the game goes up to 30th level! Either the foes have to be dishing out 50 points on average at 10th+ level or the danger of death as a consequence of failure is eliminated.

I need to see this play out to know for sure but this really just sings of a system that has padded the game down to a 2 dimensional video game with lots of save points and a respawn if you die.