Pathfinder 2E Getting started with PF2


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Staffan

Legend
The game's math is pretty tight. When I mentioned having to adjust the AP I'm running to account for 6 2nd level PCs in an area that was meant for 4 1st level PCs, if you follow the game's instructions for encounter balancing you'll generally end up with an encounter that is as challenging as you intended.
My experience with this particular adjustment: if you have a single fairly strong opponent in an encounter, the easy change would be to make it an Elite (which basically gives it +2 to everything and counts as 1 level higher which is about +50% XP). Do not do this. It is much better to change the opponent to a Weak version (-2 to everything) and have two of them. XP-wise it works out the same, but doesn't have the feelbad thing of a hard-to-hit AC or swinginess of the strong damage and lots of crits an elite would have.

If the single opponent is a named character, it might not make much sense to "clone" them. In that case, either add a single "lieutenant" with level X-2 or two "minions" with level X-4. Do not increase the stats of the "boss" beyond the standard ones.
 

Kichwas

Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism
The DM of of a 5e game I'm in is considering a move to PF2 once this current campaign wraps up. None of us have any pathfinder experience, but we do have friends who speak well of it plus what I've read here. The group is at the least 5e vets, with the DM and some others going back to D&D 4ed and myself going way back.
So first thing is to remember PF2E is not D&D, and the way you run it and play it is very different. Just keep that in mind as a general notion going forward.

First, what book(s) would you recommend to play? To run? Yes, I understand there is a good online SRD as well, but that's likely better as a reference and not as a "learn this game". (Or maybe it is great to learn from.) I know there was a PF2 Humble Bundle just a few months ago, do those type of things happen often?
Start with these two resources:
Home - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database - all the rules
Pathbuilder 2e - the go to character builder.
There is also a Pathfinder wiki but I recommend avoiding it. It's a lore resource and frequently chooses to keep PF1E lore when PF2E and PF1E conflict. That's important because PF2E retconned a lot of Mary Sue and Colonialist junk out of the lore... Both of which are problems of two very different natures. Instead look for lore on YouTube with YouTubers that are making videos more or less current to the time you jump in.

It may take us a year to wrap up the current campaign, is it worth it to wait for the PF2 Remastered books -- are these rules updates, or just new layout and organization?
The remaster is replacing the core rulebook, the advanced players guide, and the gamemastery guide. Any other books are still good buys. I recommend actually starting with a lore book.

Second, reading these forums I've seen information that could be useful to run, but I hadn't made note of it. For instance I saw that there is some optional (free archetype?) rule that seems everyone does. What recommendations do you have?
I'd avoid all variant rules until you know the system better. Some of them, like the 'level without proficiency bonus' can break major parts of the game engine (making classes that depend on certain bonuses lose much of their functionality).

Lastly, I've seen things that are different expectations from running D&D, such as full healing between encounters is expected. Or that a 3rd action attack is usually worth little compared to setting up an ally. What should we plant in player and the DM's head in order to break out of the D&D rut and get into PF2?

Yeah. As I had started, keep in mind that it's different.

Some key things:

  • PF2E is a team focused game. Your PCs should build their PCs as if they were MMO players going into a group dungeon. Identify key roles and have each person pick one and go for it. NOT the same exact roles as an MMO like FFXIV or WoW. More like present day Guild Wars 2 - who is support, who has buffing, who dishes out burst damage, who will apply conditions onto enemies, who does this or that.
    • If you build a team of main characters and individual heroes things won't go well.
    • I see D&D players often say "it's none of your business what I put on my character sheet." If I said that to my raid lead back when I was a WoW raider I'd be rightly booted out of the raid roster. The same is true in PF2E. You're making a team - so make one. Anyone who is "I'm going to spend all my skill slots on various kinds of basket weaving lore" and play a bard with 8 charisma is actively hurting the ability of the other players to enjoy the game because the game is built around team work.
  • The game engine is deadly, especially at low levels but this can remain throughout. Set expectations accordingly. It is particularly unforgiving of players who refuse to think tactically.
  • Recall Knowledge is key. The game assumes people are using it all the time. So far I have yet to see people do so in any game I've been in and I can see us having issues as a result. I very often see GMs let players talk over the player asking to recall knowledge almost as if the GM doesn't want to deal with it - but your GM needs to see that this is the primary tool they have for handing out the plot. If you don't actively encourage players to use it, they will wander aimlessly through your adventure holding railroad tickets for a train that PF2E is not designed to have arrive.
  • Every single published adventure made before late 2022 is badly tuned. Get very proactive at checking encounters using the encounter design rules and then correcting them for the proper difficulty for a group of your size. Even if your group is 4 PCs that are a fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric and the module says it's built for 4 PCs and this is a moderate encounter... it isn't. It's probably extreme or even "OMG WTF"... Prior to last year they had good plot writers but their balance team was clearly snorting crack in the back room somewhere...
  • Lots of magic items. The game assumes you will have a steady supply of magic items. Do NOT hold back on this or the PCs will get slaughtered. If you use Foundry and you use a certain mod that gives you prestocked shops for some popular adventures... your PCs will be screwed as that module caps out its shops around level 3 for modules like Abomination Vaults where the local town is supposed to have shops with gear up to level 10.
  • Hand out Hero Points. So far every GM I've been with has not given any out other than the 1 you get at session start and things can get rough. The game engine assumes you're getting about 1 per hour of play and that you're probably doing 1 combat encounter every hour of play so yeah...
  • Anyone who uses their third action to spam a third attack should be asked to change class and hand the role over to a player with a brain. ;) Use it to move in or out, do maneuvers like trip, shove, grapple, disarm, aid, demoralize, distract, take cover, or just about anything else. You can 3 attack and very rarely it's worth it. But usually you're just making it harder for your allies by essentially giving the other side bonus actions by dent of you wasting one of your side's actions.
  • The math is nowhere near as complex as people think. In fact it very quickly vanishes from site as so many fundamentals work around the same concepts.
  • Don't homebrew any rules until you have proven through play that something in RAW is not working for you. The game engine is so tightly designed that Homebrew can have dramatically unexpected consequences.
  • Let people enjoy uncommon ancestries and classes. They're there, they make the game feel more unique and less D&D, and they are balanced. So allow them.
  • Make sure someone can cover out of combat healing and someone can cover in combat healing and ideally don't force both of these burdens onto the same player.
 
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Kichwas

Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism
I found this tool pretty handy for making sure you're building an encounter correctly.
If you use foundry, the tool inside of that for checking encounters is the mod "Monk's Little Details". This puts a little colored title on the GM's view of the encounter tracker BEFORE you start the encounter for what it's CR actually is compared to your actual group as opposed to the 'ideal group of 4'.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
  • PF2E is a team focused game. Your PCs should build their PCs as if they were MMO players going into a group dungeon. Identify key roles and have each person pick one and go for it. NOT the same exact roles as an MMO like FFXIV or WoW. More like present day Guild Wars 2 - who is support, who has buffing, who dishes out burst damage, who will apply conditions onto enemies, who does this or that.
    • If you build a team of main characters and individual heroes things won't go well.
    • I see D&D players often say "it's none of your business what I put on my character sheet." If I said that to my raid lead back when I was a WoW raider I'd be rightly booted out of the raid roster. The same is true in PF2E. You're making a team - so make one. Anyone who is "I'm going to spend all my skill slots on various kinds of basket weaving lore" and play a bard with 8 charisma is actively hurting the ability of the other players to enjoy the game because the game is built around team work.

I think this overstates it a little bit, but its bringing up an important point; completely ignoring what other people are doing in terms of character creation or what function you'll serve in a team is not likely to go well, and there's a price for deliberately building a character subpar (this is not the same as not optimizing them--the mid to top range of PF2e is usually close enough that you won't be punished for the former in play to a visible level.) My personal opinion is that there are group construction that aren't going to go well, but they aren't usually ones that would have gone well in D&D 3e, 4e or even most earlier editions either (I don't feel competent to speak of 5e) such as all martial parties or parties completely lacking in frontline types

  • The game engine is deadly, especially at low levels but this can remain throughout. Set expectations accordingly. It is particularly unforgiving of players who refuse to think tactically.

Though, this can be overstated. Its only likely to be visible when dealing with up-level encounters, or encounters where peculiarities of group construction interact with quirks of the particular opponents badly.

  • Recall Knowledge is key. The game assumes people are using it all the time. So far I have yet to see people do so in any game I've been in and I can see us having issues as a result. I very often see GMs let players talk over the player asking to recall knowledge almost as if the GM doesn't want to deal with it - but your GM needs to see that this is the primary tool they have for handing out the plot. If you don't actively encourage players to use it, they will wander aimlessly through your adventure holding railroad tickets for a train that PF2E is not designed to have arrive.

This is pretty boggling to hear, since not paying attention to Recall Knowledge seems like a way to slam face-first into opponents Resistances as you advance, and that's not going to be pleasant.

  • Every single published adventure made before late 2022 is badly tuned. Get very proactive at checking encounters using the encounter design rules and then correcting them for the proper difficulty for a group of your size. Even if your group is 4 PCs that are a fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric and the module says it's built for 4 PCs and this is a moderate encounter... it isn't. It's probably extreme or even "OMG WTF"... Prior to last year they had good plot writers but their balance team was clearly snorting crack in the back room somewhere...

My suggestion has been "was fighting the last war". PF1e, like D&D3e had a CR system that failed out progressively as you leveled, as it started to consistently overstate the hazard of encounters relative to the PCs. I expect the early writers were subconsciously carrying over that assumption to PF2e and upgraded the encounters higher than they should have because of it.

  • Lots of magic items. The game assumes you will have a steady supply of magic items. Do NOT hold back on this or the PCs will get slaughtered. If you use Foundry and you use a certain mod that gives you prestocked shops for some popular adventures... your PCs will be screwed as that module caps out its shops around level 3 for modules like Abomination Vaults where the local town is supposed to have shops with gear up to level 10.

Though, honestly, this is mostly an issue with weapons, armor and resistance items. Most of the other stuff is colorful and sometimes useful, but I forget I have them half the time and its had little visible impact. Not having things that improve your AC, saves, attack, damage or resistances is a different story.

  • Hand out Hero Points. So far every GM I've been with has not given any out other than the 1 you get at session start and things can get rough. The game engine assumes you're getting about 1 per hour of play and that you're probably doing 1 combat encounter every hour of play so yeah...

Though this is hit or miss. I've gone through whole sessions where I didn't need them, and had situations come up where I desperately did.

  • Anyone who uses their third action to spam a third attack should be asked to change class and hand the role over to a player with a brain. ;) Use it to move in or out, do maneuvers like trip, shove, grapple, disarm, aid, demoralize, distract, take cover, or just about anything else. You can 3 attack and very rarely it's worth it. But usually you're just making it harder for your allies by essentially giving the other side bonus actions by dent of you wasting one of your side's actions.

There's one special case where this isn't necessarily true; a particular rogue build goes out of its way to minimize its multi-action penalty. While they still will sometimes have better things to do with their third action, its not actually stupid for them to use it to attack.

  • Make sure someone can cover out of combat healing and someone can cover in combat healing and ideally don't force both of these burdens onto the same player.

Eh. Its not that painful once you're going to have the in-combat specialist anyway to invest in the feats and Medicine skill to do it out of combat too. Most of its skill feats which are cheap to come by anyway.
 

If you use foundry, the tool inside of that for checking encounters is the mod "Monk's Little Details". This puts a little colored title on the GM's view of the encounter tracker BEFORE you start the encounter for what it's CR actually is compared to your actual group as opposed to the 'ideal group of 4'.
Thanks! The status effect adjusted view is reason enough to install that, going to give that a try.
 

Kichwas

Half-breed, still living despite WotC racism
I think this overstates it a little bit, but its bringing up an important point; completely ignoring what other people are doing in terms of character creation or what function you'll serve in a team is not likely to go well, and there's a price for deliberately building a character subpar (this is not the same as not optimizing them--the mid to top range of PF2e is usually close enough that you won't be punished for the former in play to a visible level.) My personal opinion is that there are group construction that aren't going to go well, but they aren't usually ones that would have gone well in D&D 3e, 4e or even most earlier editions either (I don't feel competent to speak of 5e) such as all martial parties or parties completely lacking in frontline types



Though, this can be overstated. Its only likely to be visible when dealing with up-level encounters, or encounters where peculiarities of group construction interact with quirks of the particular opponents badly.



This is pretty boggling to hear, since not paying attention to Recall Knowledge seems like a way to slam face-first into opponents Resistances as you advance, and that's not going to be pleasant.



My suggestion has been "was fighting the last war". PF1e, like D&D3e had a CR system that failed out progressively as you leveled, as it started to consistently overstate the hazard of encounters relative to the PCs. I expect the early writers were subconsciously carrying over that assumption to PF2e and upgraded the encounters higher than they should have because of it.



Though, honestly, this is mostly an issue with weapons, armor and resistance items. Most of the other stuff is colorful and sometimes useful, but I forget I have them half the time and its had little visible impact. Not having things that improve your AC, saves, attack, damage or resistances is a different story.



Though this is hit or miss. I've gone through whole sessions where I didn't need them, and had situations come up where I desperately did.



There's one special case where this isn't necessarily true; a particular rogue build goes out of its way to minimize its multi-action penalty. While they still will sometimes have better things to do with their third action, its not actually stupid for them to use it to attack.



Eh. Its not that painful once you're going to have the in-combat specialist anyway to invest in the feats and Medicine skill to do it out of combat too. Most of its skill feats which are cheap to come by anyway.
It depends I guess.
You have to put a number of skill feats that way:
Assurance
Continual
Ward.
- some people have builds that don’t need their skill feats so can do this, other people need all their skill feats and so end up making choices…

It can be good to have at least 2 people have baseline medicine just in case the guy who got killed last fight wasn’t your medic.

I don’t think I have seen a single moderate or greater fight in PF2E where we didn’t have at least one person go to 0hp at least once in a fight. Usual is about half the group every fight.
 


Thomas Shey

Legend
It depends I guess.
You have to put a number of skill feats that way:
Assurance
Continual
Ward.

The only one I recall our skill medics bothering with as Assurance. If you're used to a lot of encounters in short order, I can see the others, but most of the cases where that was the case the encounters were weak enough we didn't take much damage in the first place.

- some people have builds that don’t need their skill feats so can do this, other people need all their skill feats and so end up making choices…

In most of the cases I've seen, those weren't the people who got into Medicine.

It can be good to have at least 2 people have baseline medicine just in case the guy who got killed last fight wasn’t your medic.

In theory. I still maintain its easier to lose a whole party in PF2e than an individual character.

I don’t think I have seen a single moderate or greater fight in PF2E where we didn’t have at least one person go to 0hp at least once in a fight. Usual is about half the group every fight.

Whereas over a full AP, about half an AP, and a mini-campaign, I've seen people go down maybe five times. You could make arguments about the fact the full campaign was one with multiclassing, and the partial one had free archetype, but the hybrid campaign was the one I saw the most people go down in.
 

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