Ghosts and Force Effects

[Greenfield]

We had an odd situation in our last game. The DM, who is vision-impaired, ran a monster he created with Monsterforge (I think).

It was some Colossal sized fang and tentacle monstrosity, with the Ghost template. 25 Hit Dice, CR 17.

The confusion comes down to this: The base creature is supposed to be a grapple monster, plain and simple. But the Ghost template advises that, while the Ghost will have all the base and special attacks of the base creature, it won't be able to use any that require physical contact.

So the question is: Can a Colossal but non-corporeal grapple monster grapple someone with Mage Armor, or wearing Bracers of Armor?

Can it do its normal physical damage?

(We avoided the situation using a spell called Radiance, I think. It provides sunlight levels of illumination, specifically enough to shut down non-corporeal undead, and Dazzles them as well. 60 foot radius.)

As a note: I pulled the reverse of this question once, having bad guys cast Wall of Stone on the Ethereal plane, positioned to block a tunnel in the real world. People with Bracers, or using the Mage Armor spell, kept running into some invisible barrier, while the rest of the party walked through without incident. The Force effects extend into the Ethereal plane, and so interact with the wall, while those without such things have no problems at all.

The wall could be shoved aside with a relatively simple Strength check, since it wasn't actually anchored to anything in a weightless environment, but then the people depending on Mage Armor and the like tended to be the ones with the worst Strength scores, so... It was a fun little bit of confusion.

But, back on topic (I do tend to ramble, don't I), can an Ethereal or non-corporeal creature Grapple or otherwise maul someone with a Force based defense, such as Bracers, or the Mage Armor spell?

 

[Stormonu]

If I remember correctly, non-corporeal creatures normally do not have a strength score, thus they can't "push back" against a force-based spell. If this creature does have a Strength score, my personal ruling would be that it could interact with force effects - pushing or slamming through a wall of force, knocking a mage armored character about, even possibly crushing them in a grapple.

 

[the Jester]

Normally, no, but I've done a "ghost touch- this monster counts as having a Str of x and ghost touch for grappling" clause in a similar case. It just seemed suitable.

Or maybe I let it use its Cha or Dex bonus. Can't recall, honestly.

 

[Greenfield]

If a non-corporeal creature had an inherent Ghost Touch ability, would that make them effectively corporeal?

 

[the Jester]

If a non-corporeal creature had an inherent Ghost Touch ability, would that make them effectively corporeal?

Only when they choose to use it.

 

[Nezkrul]

Ghosts can wield ghost-touch weapons and armor on their incorporeal bodies, and when doing so against material beings they use their charisma score as their strength score

 

[TarionzCousin]

What is the sound of one colossal incorporeal grappler clapping?

 

[Vegepygmy]

So the question is: Can a Colossal but non-corporeal grapple monster grapple someone with Mage Armor, or wearing Bracers of Armor?

No. That spell/item provides an armor bonus to AC that also applies to incorporeal touch attacks; they don't turn the user into some kind of ghost touch object.

Can it do its normal physical damage?

Only on the Ethereal Plane, where it is corporeal.

 

[Jacob]

There seems to be a lot of confusion with Force effects here. The colossal sized fang and tentacle monstrosity cannot grapple what it cannot touch. Granted, it can touch with its special Ghost acquired attacks, and that's where the Force effects come into play. Incorporeal creatures ignore armor like air, yet Force/Deflection/etc. is something solid to them. It still can't hold or even touch someone's body, because it's like air to them. If you do something akin to the Ghost Touch ability for weapons and armor, you're effectively creating a new monster and not a Ghost. Unless there's a feat or special ability noted somewhere, you will need to work out how such a creature can be balanced. Though I must say the prospect of such a beast is scary.

In regards to the Wall of Stone from the Ethereal Plane scenario, it shouldn't have happened like that. Entire wars could be fought in the Ethereal Plane or the World's Largest Dungeon could be there as well, and a party upon the Material Plan could walk right through them without noticing a thing. And while it’s possible to hit ethereal enemies with a force spell cast on the Material Plane, the reverse isn’t possible. No magical attacks cross from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane, including force attacks.

 

[Nezkrul]

How about give the grappling incorporeal creature a special ability that it can use at will to target a material creature and force it to make a will save or become ethereal against its will - thus allowing the creature to grapple its now-ethereal target to death