Gleemax Terms of Use - Unacceptable

[Ourph]

I can understand WotC imposing those terms on Gleemax users. I can also understand people not agreeing with those terms and eschewing Gleemax as a result. I don't have any intention of using the Gleemax forums (for other reasons), but if I did, the TOU contract wouldn't stop me. Honestly, I don't see what's is so unreasonable about the terms. :\

 

[meleeguy]

Well, let's look back shall we?


Viciously protecting?

Melee Guy's art

My parody of WotC, clearly marked as humor, in no way supports your position.

My bad for bringing up 4e explicitly, however intertwined with Gleemax.

edit: Actually, I had no idea there was so much 4e 'turmoil' until I looked over at the 4e forum for the first time. I regret the timing, although not the content, of my lampoon.

 

[Fifth Element]

It doesn't seem appropriate to me. I'd describe my attitude as "dismissive", "rejecting" or even "contemptuous", but then I think WOTC's terms of use were served up with a healthy dollop of contempt for their customers.

Of course, you're not the only one here. Not everything is personally directed at you.

I'm amazed their practice is being defended, though perhaps on reflection I shouldn't be.

I choose to ignore the dismissive implication here, and say: you're right, you shouldn't be. It's a perfectly defensible practice.

 

[Sigurd]

This is a reasonable conversation.

Ethically disgusting?

I think there's more than enough hate going on. Granted, maybe I'm just a sensitive guy. But, when people feel strong enough to use this kind of language, I'm getting the sense that there's some personal outrage going on.

Hussar,

If you want to push buttons with buzz words go ahead. You might derail a reasonable conversation but I don't think so. You've quoted me twice about "hate" and I am going out of my way to be reasonable to WOTC. People considering this are expressing their opinions about the terms of use. Do you feel 'sensitive' or threatened by objections to the TOU? People are expected to accept or reject it. If you reject it you are allowed to have reasons - that is the nature of an offer.

If they are not reasons you share that is your opinion and good right but casting accusations and villainizing other people's opinions is bad form.

If you feel I've been hateful please report me, if it will make you feel better. If you don't maybe you should apologize to some of these other people who have found your suggestion disturbing. Perhaps they misunderstood your intent. These are words that carry powerful overtones in gentle places like Enworld.


Sigurd

 

[rgard]

I can understand WotC imposing those terms on Gleemax users. I can also understand people not agreeing with those terms and eschewing Gleemax as a result. I don't have any intention of using the Gleemax forums (for other reasons), but if I did, the TOU contract wouldn't stop me. Honestly, I don't see what's is so unreasonable about the terms. :\

Agreed, if you don't agree to the TOU, don't post your stuff there.

 

[Yair]

Honestly, I don't see what's is so unreasonable about the terms. :\

Consider fan-site material. Currently, there is no legal way for me to discuss my adventures in the Forgotten Realms or so on, barring some very lenient interpretations of Fair Use. This is due to Wizards not having a clear fan-site policy. Gleemax promises to change this by providing a venue for publishing works derivative of Wizard's works. The price to pay is that the work must then be given to Wizards use for free. You might think this is a reasonable price for Wizards to demand for playing based on their games; I don't. It would be nice for Wizards to provide a venue to publish legally, but it just isn't nice for them to force you to give them ownership over every derivative work you wish to publish there. The decent thing to do is to allow fans to publish with impunity, and anything else is not acceptable - which is precisely why this is the policy in practice, no fan site is being sued even though they are all acting illegally and not under any clear fan-site policy. Gleemax is essentially trying to change this, which isn't decent (even if it is legal).

What's even more extreme is that with the new 4e and the non-existent OGL there would be no way to legally talk about D&D (4e), excepting again by giving WotC all the rights or abiding to an apparently severely limiting license. This is in sharp contrast to 3.x D&D, where you could legally talk about your hombrews with impunity using the OGL. (No, the new OGL won't provide you such freedoms IMO).

Of course, most sites operate illegally. In practice, WotC won't and doesn't want to stop you from talking about your homebrew, D&D characters, house rules, or FR adventures. Still, I care about what can be done legally. And I find the new corporate-owned highway repungant. The only way I can talk about my D&D stuff legally is to give Wizards the rights to anything I say about them. That's just annoying. Not to mention impossible when considering material that isn't Wizards-originated, e.g. a Goodman Games adventure. I want to speak without Wizards owning my words. They're my words. Even if they aren't worth a dime - and they won't be - they're still my words, and I just don't want some corporation to own the rights to use them. I have no intention of giving my words to Hasbaro for free, even if that's what they're worth.

 

[jaerdaph]

While you guys were up all night arguing about this, I met this really hot Brazilian chick at a local cafe bar last night. We're going out for dinner on Thursday. Just thought I'd share.

That is all.

 

[Ourph]

Consider fan-site material. Currently, there is no legal way for me to discuss my adventures in the Forgotten Realms or so on, barring some very lenient interpretations of Fair Use.

I think this is a pretty radical interpretation of copyright protections. By that standard, you are breaking the law by simply creating your own adventures in the first place, even if you never post them to the internet or share the file with someone else.

Gleemax promises to change this by providing a venue for publishing works derivative of Wizard's works. The price to pay is that the work must then be given to Wizards use for free. You might think this is a reasonable price for Wizards to demand for playing based on their games; I don't.
<snip>
I want to speak without Wizards owning my words. They're my words. Even if they aren't worth a dime - and they won't be - they're still my words, and I just don't want some corporation to own the rights to use them. I have no intention of giving my words to Hasbaro for free, even if that's what they're worth.

That's fine. I already said that I understood the terms wouldn't be acceptable to everyone, and I even agree that it's not a great policy. I just don't see that they are as unreasonable as some people's reactions would seem to indicate. In fact, I would expect people who seem to be so protective of their own IP to be more understanding of a company establishing very strict policies in order to protect ownership of their IP. It seems hypocritical to want your own IP so strictly protected and to call for WotC to be extremely lenient with their own.

 

[FraserRonald]

While you guys were up all night arguing about this, I met this really hot Brazilian chick at a local cafe bar last night. We're going out for dinner on Thursday. Just thought I'd share.

That is all.

For the win.

Personally, I stopped using the Wizards' boards a long time ago. It had nothing to do with the TOU. It just wasn't that interesting or useful. There are better board on which to post and follow the discussion, say like this one.

Frankly, I don't post anything to which I may want to later claim ownership on any board other than the one hosted by my fellow Accidental Survivor.

 

[Firevalkyrie]

I would like to point out, recently Wizards has published a book that was put together by a fan and first distributed across the Internet. But they did it the right way. They contacted the person in question (Brian R. James), and not only got his permission, but paid him for his work. Brian is now working on materials for the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms setting.

With this in mind, I do think that if Wizards saw something they wanted to publish that was posted on Gleemax, they would do the right thing.

I agree. It's easier both in terms of PR and in terms of manpower and effort IMO to go, "Hey, we like [this concept you posted], would you like to write it up in book form?" than to go "Yoink! Now we don't have to pay you for it!"