Godhood as epic prestige classes?

[Angel Tarragon]

For anyone this likes the idea of godhood gained through classes, you might want to check out the Jester's The Ascendant Epic PrC.

 

[Huw]

Avalanche Press's Egyptian supplement Nile Empire had some divine prestige classes - Avatar and Pharoah. They were as powerful as they sound, but like AP's other supplements, aren't really meant to be used outside of that setting.

 

[Razz]

I think the real question is: Has anyone done anything Epic before?

Seems of all the material out there in D&D, the least amount is in Epic material. Which is very upsetting to those such as myself.

 

[Darkwolf445]

It's interesting that this question is asked when Upper_Krust is getting close to finally finishing his base rules for the Immortal's Handbook, Ascension.

How Close?
Been waiting for this one.

 

[Sejs]

I think the real question is: Has anyone done anything Epic before?

Nope, never. Just you.

Seems of all the material out there in D&D, the least amount is in Epic material. Which is very upsetting to those such as myself.

That's in part because it's a niche. Not that much printed material for incarnum or psionics outside of the base book either, because it's not necessarily a central feature in everyone's game.

Add to that the no-upper-limit nature of epic content and it gets a bit more complicated. Where does the line get drawn on what's epic enough for a product to be able to sell enough copy to justify its own existance? Lv 25? 40? 100? Hard to be all things to all people.

 

[paradox42]

How Close?
Been waiting for this one.

Well, those of us who got in on the preorder scheme before the big PDF-seller merger have been able to see every update he's made since he started. And he's done more than he should have, everybody (including him) agrees, but that's what usually happens with him so it was sort of expected.

As of the update he posted just today, there are several parts of the book left to finish:

• The Resonance rules. These are rules for how to handle the case of a character being granted divine power by an existing divine being, or by stealing said divinity from an artifact. Some of us have been eagerly awaiting them, notably me since one of my own PCs has jumped the gun and gotten into this situation- but so far UK's been doing everything else first. Ah well- not like I can't hold off on a few things. This is the only part missing from Chapter 1, which describes how deities get their power.
• Most of the Portfolios. This is chapter 3 of the 4, and is one of the two chapters critical to building "rules-complete" deities in UK's scheme. Every deity/immortal below the "Eternal" tier gets two by default; Eternals are beyond the notion of Portfolios since they represent entire living universes (think, Gods beyond Overgods- i.e. the being that created Ao and Chaos and all the other Overgods you've seen in D&D novels over the years). UK's got several Portfolios done already, but there are many more still to complete, and most are actually in a sort of partly-completed state where there are lots of blanks and copy/paste errors to fix.
• Final editing on Chapter 4. Chapter 4 is the real meat of the book, where all the new Epic feats, and more importantly all the Divine and higher-tier powers are listed and explained in game terms. This chapter has been functionally complete for some time, and people have been using it to stat up truly crazy entities on their own- notably the Mortiverse, which was given several of the highest-tier powers (things such as Infinite Strength) as soon as they were added to the updates we were getting. What's left to do here is fix a few minor grammar errors, copy/paste errors, and sentence fragments.
• The Appendix. This is where one sample deity for every template introduced in Chapter 2 will be included. So far UK's done everything up to the Old One, which is two steps above Greater Deity, though there's some details still to fill in for some of the deities below that level (for example, the Greater Deity still needs his Legend detailed, and some Adventure Ideas listed).
• The Art. There are many places in the text where blank space has been set aside for some illustration or another, and all of them have a brief descritpion of what picture is supposed to go there when it's done- but no actual illustrations are present yet.

What's already finished are the rules for the other aspects of gaining divinity- that is, the "Worship Points System" and an explanation of how one gets Quintessence by defeating other deity-level beings. Also finished, long since, are the templates for every type of Immortal entity from lowly Disciples (still-mortal beings with 1 Divine Rank) all the way up to the mighty High Lords (beings which form from the merger of two or more living universes). The next step above the High Lord level is the Supreme Being, but that obviously has no stats since it represents- well, the Supreme Being.

As a percentage estimate, I'd estimate the book's text is probably 90% or more completed, depending on how long the write-ups for the remaining sample beings take, and on how much reformatting and changes need to be done on Chapter 3. Illustration work has yet to get anything except the cover art, but UK has stated that he does have help for the artwork this time around so hopefully some of that's been happening behind-the-scenes and he's just waiting for the text to be pulled into final shape before he starts pasting the illustrations in.

Estimated date of completion? Well, this is UK, the man infamous for missing deadlines, so no estimate is really fair to give- but I would honestly be shocked if the text isn't done by mid-January of 2007. And really, that's what's actually needed to make the book usable, so there might be a way to get a "text-only" version up on the PDF store at that point, sort of like how Dreamscarred Press did Untapped Potential.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Has anyone tried this before? Making divinity an epic prestige class?

The Dragon Ascendant PrC gave me this idea too. I figured if I ever ran a divine game I'd just grant an epic feat at each divine level in addition to all the other divine stuff. Why turn the progression into a series of PrCs though, instead of just one?

I don't see a problem with requiring a HD/level total, despite contradictory recommendations--divinity breaks the rules. Why come up with a bunch of indirect requirements to be X level/ECL, that quite conceivably could be broken by powergaming, when you can just require X level/ECL?

I do agree that just turning divinity into a PrC doesn't capture the nature of it though. It would work for a highlander/Mt:G style game, which could be great, but why bother with followers when all you need is XP to gain more divinity?

 

[Nightfall]

I prefer to let deeds (and the DM/GM) decide such matters. Prestige classing a divinity seems a little too...munckiny even for me.

If you want to be an immortal I could see this working but not a divinity.

*can't wait to see Krusty mate's more powerful epic stuff* The man is so good...he scares me but in a good way!

 

[Sheridan]

I think the real question is: Has anyone done anything Epic before?

The original D&D Immortals Box Set (Box 5, the gold box) and the Wrath of the Immortals Box Set essentilly did this. You had to reach maximum level for your class (36 for most humans, 10 for elves, 16 for mystics, 12 for dwarves, 8 for halflings - wow, I can't believe I remember that!), have an immortal sponsor, pick a sphere of influence, complete a quest, and a couple other things. Once these were accomplished, you were essentially a Level 1 immortal and could gain levels in the Immortal (prestige) class. I don't know if these box sets are available in PDF or not, but it may be worth checking out enworld.rpgnow.com or Paizo's site to see.
-Scott Moore

 

[Razz]

That's in part because it's a niche. Not that much printed material for incarnum or psionics outside of the base book either, because it's not necessarily a central feature in everyone's game.

Add to that the no-upper-limit nature of epic content and it gets a bit more complicated. Where does the line get drawn on what's epic enough for a product to be able to sell enough copy to justify its own existance? Lv 25? 40? 100? Hard to be all things to all people.

It may be a niche, but whose fault is that? WotC could've easily foresaw that such a product would've been a small niche, even smaller than psionics. And they could've easily rectified the situation by making more epic material whether people liked it or not. Eventually, the gamers succumb. There's only so many times you'll refuse to buy a book because it has "epic material" in it. In time, the fan base will grow and campaigns going past 20 will actually be a common sight. But, as typical of WotC, they don't ever look at the long run. :\

Makes me wonder why WotC even bothered with it if they weren't going to support it?