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Goobye Johnny!

TrubbulTheTroll

First Post
JeffB said:
Well I miss those days too..<snip>... Those articles are 99.9% useless to me. When they do include "flavor" and or "fluff" and "idea" articles it's often totally innappropriate for my style of play/campaign. Dragon has turned into a monthly rules supplement, which I have no use for.

The few regular features I have liked have gone by the wayside apparently.

I miss the flava, too. :(
D&D 3.5 has caught up to the rest of the American taste for eXtreme - eXtreme in presentation; eXtreme in content; eXtreme all over. Why it's just like my FLAVOR-BLASTED Pepperidge Farm goldfish and everything else I buy at the supermarket.
 

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woodelf

First Post
TrubbulTheTroll said:
I miss the flava, too. :(
D&D 3.5 has caught up to the rest of the American taste for eXtreme - eXtreme in presentation; eXtreme in content; eXtreme all over. Why it's just like my FLAVOR-BLASTED Pepperidge Farm goldfish and everything else I buy at the supermarket.

You know, you don't have to buy Flavor-Blasted Pepperidge Farm Goldfish, and you probably don't have to go to the supermarket. Almost no matter where you live in the US, you can probably find a grocery store with real food--or, at the very least, organic mass-produced food.

Likewise, if you don't like what D20 System has to offer--or, more specifically, what it generally does offer, why not play something else? I mean, the argument that "there's more support" doesn't really carry much weight if you don't like the support, so why not just play another game? I don't like D&D3E, so i don't play it. Simple as that. Yes, it's disappointing that Dragon isn't what it used to be (and even more disappointing that Arcane doesn't exist any more), and frustrating that D&D seems to be moving away from what you and i like--but you have a voice. Vote with your dollars. Don't just give in and buy it 'cause it's D&D, if it's not what you want.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
JeffB said:
Well I miss those days too..when dragon catered to the whole RPG market,

I personally think trying to branch beyond the d20 market would be an incredibly bad idea. It would fractionalize the magazine's content the same way differing campaigns did to TSR. They would lose more readers over the space not devoted to d20 than they would gain by having something else there.

but I meant to cater to the D&D players/Dms who don't want

1)Endless Templated creatures of the month
2) Bucketloads O' new feats
3) Even more odd-ball PrClasses
4) conversions from computer games
5) 10 pages of Sage Advice/PowerPlays, etc
6) Poor fiction
etc. etc.

Those articles are 99.9% useless to me. When they do include "flavor" and or "fluff" and "idea" articles it's often totally innappropriate for my style of play/campaign. Dragon has turned into a monthly rules supplement, which I have no use for.

You seem to do an awful lot of complaining about the content of the magazines, listing all the stuff they have that you can't use. Never once do you actually say what you WOULD like them to have. Honestly, if you're going to bash something by saying its so terrible, then why don't you at least offer an opinion on how it could improve (assuming it needs to at all; I think Dragon and Dungeon are great as they are now).
 

JeffB

Legend
Alzrius said:
I personally think trying to branch beyond the d20 market would be an incredibly bad idea. It would fractionalize the magazine's content the same way differing campaigns did to TSR. They would lose more readers over the space not devoted to d20 than they would gain by having something else there.



You seem to do an awful lot of complaining about the content of the magazines, listing all the stuff they have that you can't use. Never once do you actually say what you WOULD like them to have. Honestly, if you're going to bash something by saying its so terrible, then why don't you at least offer an opinion on how it could improve (assuming it needs to at all; I think Dragon and Dungeon are great as they are now).

Quite the contrary. Over the past 3 years I have made several posts on this and other boards of what I would like to see and/or what I would like to see remain in Dragon magazine (as well as Dungeon).

However it always seems to fall on deaf ears....I guess most D20 players only like the kind of articles I mentioned above that are useless to me.

:shrug:

P.S. I wasn't implying Dragon SHOULD cater to the whole RPG market these days, only that I miss that focus of the magazine..yeesh...
 

diaglo

Adventurer
JeffB said:
Had I posted what I really wanted to say about Mr. Wilson's actions and statements while at the helm, my comments would seem quite kind. :D


ditto. :D

i'll just say goodbye Johnny so it at least looks like i'm a nice guy. :p
 

Psion

Adventurer
I personally think trying to branch beyond the d20 market would be an incredibly bad idea.

I agree. I think with the presence of distracting elements like fiction, computer-gaming related articles, and minis articles, the magazine has enough difficulty staying focussed. Branching out of d20 would be the straw that breaks the camel's back for my subscription, and I don't imagine I am alone.
 

woodelf

First Post
Psion said:
I agree. I think with the presence of distracting elements like fiction, computer-gaming related articles, and minis articles, the magazine has enough difficulty staying focussed. Branching out of d20 would be the straw that breaks the camel's back for my subscription, and I don't imagine I am alone.

So ditch the minis, computer-game, and maybe fiction bits. Make it an RPG magazine. IMHO, an article for any RPG is useful for any [other] RPG--the same can't be said of articles for other sorts of content (they may be useful, but not so reliably and universally so).
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
woodelf said:
IMHO, an article for any RPG is useful for any [other] RPG

I could not disagree more.

Frankly speaking, I have no use for, and could not use, articles on RPGs such as Rolemaster, GURPS, World of Darkness, et al. To me, those parts of the magazine would just be wasted space.

d20 games are already a niche market (within the niche market of tabletop RPGs), and trying to sell magazines to that crowd is difficult as it is (since not all of any market buys magazines on the subject). Trying to sell a magazine that appeals to more than one such market at a time is a recipe for disaster, since people tend to see what is lost more than what is gained.

Yes, there are gamers out there who play more than one RPG system, but the way it breaks down is that almost no one would play all the games that such a generic RPG magazine would cover, meaning everyone would have some part of it that was useless to them. Given that, people would quickly lose interest, as no one wants to pay (over and over again) for a product that you can't use all of - or worse, only use a tiny portion of.

The best thing to do is what Paizo is doing: appeal to a single target group with no deviation. That way you at least know who your audience is. Trying to appeal to multiple groups simultaneously is murky at best, especially since, as a general rule, gamers tend to fractionalize along lines of what game they play. If Paizo tried to please everyone, they'd end up pleasing no one.
 


woodelf

First Post
Alzrius said:
I could not disagree more.

Frankly speaking, I have no use for, and could not use, articles on RPGs such as Rolemaster, GURPS, World of Darkness, et al. To me, those parts of the magazine would just be wasted space.

Yes, you could use them, if you wanted to--that's my point. Now, that you choose not to is your perogative. I had a subscription to Dragon for well over a decade, and during most of that period, it nominally supported all RPGs. Yes, the vast majority of articles were for (A)D&D, but i think every issue had at least one article for something else--and some were as much as 35%, or maybe even 50%, non-D&D. And i used almost every RPG article in there, regardless of the system it was written for. The article about the dragon behind the scenes in ShadowRun? Borrowed some of the political elements. The deck plans of the Princess Ark? Used them for a regular ship. New mutation rules for Gamma World? Turned them into psionics. And so on. My useability rate for non-D&D articles was as high or higher than for D&D articles, and the only game i was playing was AD&D(1, then 2). RPGs are all so damn similar that it is trivial to port from one to another, if you want to. And the underlying elements (plots, personalities, etc.) are even more portable. And given that even the D&D articles were probably, at best, 2/3rds useable to me (almost anything with a Forgotten Realms label, frex, i probably couldn't use without significant alteration, due to either setting ties or power level), i don't see the big deal. This thread alone demonstrates that the magazine isn't currently producing 100% useable content for any given consumer, so i think it's a false negative to claim that content statted for another system would significantly reduce the magazines value. Right now you have, say, 65% content useable as-is, 25% useable with modifications, and 10% unuseable (or, at least, not gonna be used), for any given gamer. When i was only playing AD&D, and Dragon covered whatever RPG it felt like, i got similar results. And i wasn't "trying": i didn't go out of my way to find uses, in order to justify the cost of the magazine, or maximize my investment, or any such thing. They just jumped out at me. The only articles that i never found a use for, even when i tried? Computer game & miniature articles. I even got some game use out of some of the book reviews and fiction (stole a couple plots and NPCs). If i were gonna narrow the focus, it'd be to ditch fiction, and non-RPG-related articles. But keep RPG reviews.

d20 games are already a niche market (within the niche market of tabletop RPGs), and trying to sell magazines to that crowd is difficult as it is (since not all of any market buys magazines on the subject). Trying to sell a magazine that appeals to more than one such market at a time is a recipe for disaster, since people tend to see what is lost more than what is gained.

Yes, there are gamers out there who play more than one RPG system, but the way it breaks down is that almost no one would play all the games that such a generic RPG magazine would cover, meaning everyone would have some part of it that was useless to them. Given that, people would quickly lose interest, as no one wants to pay (over and over again) for a product that you can't use all of - or worse, only use a tiny portion of.

I'm not claiming that anyone plays all the systems. I'm claiming that it doesn't matter if you play the system in order to find the article useful.

The best thing to do is what Paizo is doing: appeal to a single target group with no deviation. That way you at least know who your audience is. Trying to appeal to multiple groups simultaneously is murky at best, especially since, as a general rule, gamers tend to fractionalize along lines of what game they play. If Paizo tried to please everyone, they'd end up pleasing no one.

I strongly disagree--look at the popularity of Arcane, to this day. Now, you can't base an ad campaign around "the perfect D&D resource" and then expect people to be happy if it covers multiple games. But if you base your reputation around maximal utility, rather than specialization, you might be able to pull it off. I don't think anyone expects every single article in Newsweek, or Cosmopolitan, or Reader's Digest, or Discover to be interesting to them, but they still buy them.

Moreover, once you start down the narrow specialization road, it's never ending. If your stated goal is to be a narrowly-focused resource, then people will expect you to meet their needs perfectly or not at all (or, at least, in proportion to their interest in thefocus). It sounds like Dragon has already functionally narrowed from "D&D" to "feats'n'PrC-R-Us" (or at least is well on the way there), which is already losing readers. Will an even more crunch-heavy focus make those who are currently happy with it happier, or pick up new readers? Will it make up for those it drives away? Alternately, could they have a better magazine, more appealing to more people, if the content were, say, 2/3rds D&D crunch, and the rest a mixture of non-crunchy articles and articles aimed at different systems?

Now, maybe they couldn't, because of the peculiar demographics of the RPG market: if, say, 20% of all RPG players are sufficiently partisan to not even be willing to look at an article for another system, it would seem like a win to go with diversification. But, when you figure the huge marketshare that D&D has, it might be that gaining that extra 20% of D&D players is more people than the 80% of everything else that you lose. Plus, of course, it'd take a *lot* of effort to get those who don't play D&D at all to even give Dragon a look, since it's made such a big deal out of being exclusively D&D for several years now, so there might be no going back at this point.
 

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