Good/Evil vs. Law/Chaos

Dausuul

Legend
I'd even go so far as to say that Evil people cannot truly feel love.

See, I can't really agree with this, because "evil" is such a broad brush. Imagine a guy who's a member of a powerful aristocracy. This guy has been brought up to believe that it is his right to oppress the underclass. He's aware that they lead horrible lives, and he makes decisions that actively contribute to their suffering. He's knowingly and deliberately profiting from their misery. His peasants sweat and struggle in the fields with barely enough food to get by; his slaves labor in the mines, bringing up gold to enrich his coffers at a terrible cost in lives. He treats them all as disposable and sacrifices them readily to improve his own position.

At the same time, to members of his own elite class, he is the soul of honor, courtesy, and compassion. He is a loyal friend and a stalwart ally. He has a wife and children whom he loves very much and would readily give his life to protect.

I would argue that this is an entirely realistic character and there have been many like him in history. Is he evil? Considering how he treats most of the people around him (the underclass), it's hard to argue otherwise. Yet he is perfectly capable of love and compassion for those he sees as equals.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
See, I can't really agree with this, because "evil" is such a broad brush. Imagine a guy who's a member of a powerful aristocracy. This guy has been brought up to believe that it is his right to oppress the underclass. He's aware that they lead horrible lives, and he makes decisions that actively contribute to their suffering. He's knowingly and deliberately profiting from their misery. His peasants sweat and struggle in the fields with barely enough food to get by; his slaves labor in the mines, bringing up gold to enrich his coffers at a terrible cost in lives. He treats them all as disposable and sacrifices them readily to improve his own position.

At the same time, to members of his own elite class, he is the soul of honor, courtesy, and compassion. He is a loyal friend and a stalwart ally. He has a wife and children whom he loves very much and would readily give his life to protect.

I would argue that this is an entirely realistic character and there have been many like him in history. Is he evil? Considering how he treats most of the people around him (the underclass), it's hard to argue otherwise. Yet he is perfectly capable of love and compassion for those he sees as equals.

I would say that no human is fully evil, and very few may be considered to be even fully depraved. And, while I don't doubt the possibility of a character like you describe, I'm not sure I'd go with 'fully realistic' given the dichotomy you portray.

My suspicion is that most priviledged personages who truly were the soul of honor, courtesy, and compassion were at the least troubled by their own relationship to the ones that supported their priviledged existance. If they truly tried to live in an idealized manner toward their peers, they generally probably also tried to hold an idealized relationship with their inferiors. They probably at least tried to act justly, fairly, and properly as they understood the terms of the relation with their slaves. A manorial knight who truly tried to live up to the idealized ethical standard of his day might well profit from the misery of his serfs and think it right for him to do so, but by the same token he couldn't treat them as 'disposable' or cruelly (by the societies standads of cruelty) and also live up to the societies idealized vision of noble behavior. The same would be true of a colonial slave holder. People like Washington who tried to live up to the highest standards of honor as his society understood it, were privately very troubled by the fact that their station was due to the misery of slavery. They certainly wouldn't have treated a slave cruelly as they understood the term, if only for the same reasons that they wouldn't have mistreated a dog or a horse - because they would have considered it to reflect poorly on themselves, to be crass, and to show poor breeding.

On the other hand, if in fact they did treat their inferiors as disposable and cared not a bit for how cruelly they were used, I think you'd typically find that their relationships with their peers were equally calculating and Machivellian. They probably privated mistreated their wives and children as well. They were probably loyal friends and allies only in so far as being a loyal friend and ally advanced their station, and they probably maintained the usual courtesies only in so far as doing so advanced and maintained their station. If they loved their family or anyone else, it was probably only an extension of their own self-love in that the success of their family was in some fashion proof of their own success.

Consider a character like John Rooney in 'Road to Perdition'. All of his apparant noble qualities are exposed as simple self-interest over the course of the narrative. He's not truly loyal to anyone but John Rooney, and will betray just about anyone to protect John Rooney and John Rooney's legacy. He's polite, and loyal, and compassionate only in as much as being percieved to have these characteristics and acting in that manner is good for business.

So I don't deny you the possibility you describe, I'm sure it sometimes happens, but neither do I think such disparate double lives are fully realistic. Cruelty and callousness tends to have a coarsening effect, and conversely compassion not born of simple self-interest towards anyone tends to make it harder to be cruel to anyone.

Which brings us back to the beginning. No human is fully evil. Even the worst of us don't usually desire evil ends, but rather desire good things and try to accomplish them with evil. It's difficult for us to imagine someone desiring evil, suffering, and destruction as an end unto itself.
 

Larrin

Entropic Good
For me, saying chaotic is "living by a rule of thumb" or "concerned with individual rights over society" rings not quite right.

For staters, if you believe that individual rights are more important than society, isn't that just a different set of laws? The secound you say "I, the individual, should..." you've just written a law. Not a big law, but a personal one that you'll live by, more or less. I'm not saying being individual centric is an example of Lawfullness, but it certainly isn't the OPPOSITE of lawfulness.

Secoundly, if you live by "Rules-of-thumb" basically that means sometimes you follow this rule, but sometimes you don't. Isn't that pretty much Neutral then? I hear people say "Lawful follows laws, chaos follows rules of thumb, neutral sticks in the middle." and I wonder if they realize they just implied that neutral people sometimes follow laws and sometimes follow rules that they sometimes follow and sometimes don't...To me, Rule-of-Thumb is just another form of Neutral, it certainly isn't the OPPOSITE of following a rule.

Basically, Descriptions of Chaotic Good invariably sound like just another way of describing Neutral Good, just with a different spin.

In Chaos you don't get Rules-of-Thumb, You don't get rules, and (if the far realms are any indication) you're lucky you get to have thumbs. You don't get to say "Chaotic people care about individuals rights" because thats setting up 'rules' for who chaotic people care about. Chaos cares about whatever it wants to, whenever it wants to, for as long as it wants to. It does what it wants to. Chaotic Good does good because it wants to, or perhaps just because its good (whatever that means). You can't ask them what rules they live by, because they don't have any. Maybe they're flighty or maybe they just don't let them selves get tied down worrying about anything but whats in front of them.

Since they are good, you can probably rely on them to do the right thing (or at the very least 'a' right thing) in one way or another, but they don't need any reason beyond "its a good thing" to do it, and what qualifies as "a good thing" isn't written in stone anywhere, weather externally or internally, they just know it when they see it.

I could go on a similar rant about Chaotic Neutral, but i think y'all probably see my position (wether or not you agree). Chaos is a lack laws, rules, rules-of-thumb, planning, predictability (though ones good/evil inclinations can certainly add some predictability back into the equation), consistancy, etc. It changes based on the situations

Chaos in this sense probably isn't very game friendly (people trying to emulate it often end up as 'chaotic stupid'), by its very nature it can chaff in the structured enviroment of a game, which explains why people use different definitions. I certainly wouldn't encourage any player to follow my deffinition of chaos in a gaming situation. But since we're all being arm chair philosphers here, i figured i'd put forth my thoughts....
 

Spatula

Explorer
For me, saying chaotic is "living by a rule of thumb" or "concerned with individual rights over society" rings not quite right.

For staters, if you believe that individual rights are more important than society, isn't that just a different set of laws? The secound you say "I, the individual, should..." you've just written a law. Not a big law, but a personal one that you'll live by, more or less. I'm not saying being individual centric is an example of Lawfullness, but it certainly isn't the OPPOSITE of lawfulness.
You're focusing on a literal interpretation of "lawful" that shows why the law/chaos terms were poorly chosen. Lawful doesn't mean "must follow laws" and chaotic doesn't mean "can't follow laws." That leads to the silly situation where a paladin loses his powers because he breaks the laws in a LE society. If you accept that chaotic means valuing the individual over the many, than lawful is the reverse of that; valuing the many over the individual, not "enjoys laws."
 

Larrin

Entropic Good
Lawful doesn't mean "must follow laws" and chaotic doesn't mean "can't follow laws." That leads to the silly situation where a paladin loses his powers because he breaks the laws in a LE society. If you accept that chaotic means valuing the individual over the many, than lawful is the reverse of that; valuing the many over the individual, not "enjoys laws."

I'm not saying lawful "must follow laws" i'm saying lawful "has laws it follows" and Chaos "doesn't". Mr. Paladin can follows his laws whereever he is, and opposes laws that are contrary to his. Perfectly lawful from my point of view. You can have laws that value the few over the many just as easily as you can make laws that value the many over the few. I don't see how idividual rights is in anyway chaotic...Is the 'human right' not to be tortued, even if it might save people, Chaotic? Is my personal right to a trial by a jury of my peers chaotic? I don't see it. The many vs the few can have many different mixes within a lawful society.

I would think a specific chaotic person could easily be individual focused, or he could be many focused or he could fluctuate between the two, or he could have no feelings either way. His actions in regards to many vs few are a product of his situation and his inclinations, not something you can nail down and say "This is how he should act; he's chaotic, so he'll value the individual rights over the many".

For a Lawful person, you could definitely say "he values the many over the few" or "He values the individual over the Many", both are legitimate lawful views, and you can count on him to uphold those beliefs to the bitter end. Laws don't only favor the many. There are many laws that protect the individual. I really don't see that as being a definition of lawful.

EDIT: But spatula is more or less correct in saying i have a 'literal interpretaion' of lawful/chaotic, i am promoting a 'fundementalist' view on the meaning of lawful and chaotic and how it should be applied in describing things.
 
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starwed

First Post
You're focusing on a literal interpretation of "lawful" that shows why the law/chaos terms were poorly chosen
They were chosen with the presumption of familiaraity with the works of Zelazny, Moorcock, and other New Wave sci-fi authors who emphasised the ideas of order vs. chaos in their work. A much better assumption in the late 70's early 80's, I guess... :)

My own take is more along the stasis/change, society/individuality POV. I think 3rd edition really confused the issue by (more strongly) associating chaos with unpredictability, and law with self-discipline. Those aren't philosophical stances, but personality traits.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Larrin: You draw the distinction between lawful and chaotic as between 'laws' and 'no laws'. And that's fine and I agree. But then you go on to say that any rule is a law, and that's I think drawing a wrong conclusion.

I think it should be fairly easy to see that a rule which is applicable only to yourself, and imposed on yourself, and enforced only by yourself is not a law.

It may be a rule. It may be a rule you follow rigidly. It may even make you somewhat predictable. But, for all that it isn't a law.

Before we could call something a law, it would have to be applicable to everyone in the same situation, and to be enforcable upon others. That's the distinguishing feature between, 'Law' and some internal code of honor that you choose to live by.

Taking your position to the extreme leads to really bizarre situations. Schitzophrenics, people with Tourette's, and people with OCD live in worlds with extremely rigid, extremely ordered, and intensely personal rules. If you argue that any rule is a law, then you come to the conclusion that people with schizophrenia, OCD, or sociopathic compulsions are to varying degrees cases of extreme lawfulness. But this is of course the exact opposite of our usual understanding of chaos. So it cannot be that any rule imposed on yourself (with our without your violition) is a law.
 

Celebrim

Legend
They were chosen with the presumption of familiaraity with the works of Zelazny, Moorcock, and other New Wave sci-fi authors who emphasised the ideas of order vs. chaos in their work.

I agree and would in fact go further than that. Zelazny and Moorcock write characters that aren't terribly interested in working out complex systems of morality. In a work like Amber, Zelazny doesn't spend alot of time working out the philosophical differences between those native to Amber (representing Law) and those native to the Courts of Chaos. The two groups are highly anthromorphic, the locales not that dissimilar from the reality we are used to, and the two groups are really not at all dissimilar in outlook. For most purposes, Law and Chaos are simply tribal distinctions with little philosophical ground to separate them.

I think the designations Law and Chaos were originally adopted with much this sort of idea in mind, and no real attempt to work out a detailed internally coherent philosophical description was made. But, things that can be made to work in traditional narratives don't necessarily work in the simulationist narratives that RPGs rely on. Compared to regular literature, the cosmos of an RPG is examined in much more detail by its participants.

As I understand it, the attempt to use Law and Chaos as descriptors fell apart almost immediately. The descriptions of Law and Chaos that were in use quickly led to contridictions that the participants found distasteful or confusing. For example, the description of Law - orderliness, logic, etc. - meant that Mindflayers were Lawful - and hense on the same side of the universe's great philosophical conflict as Paladins. On the other hand, fairies and djinn, where clearly on the side of Chaos, and thus no matter how benevolent they were, were on the same side of the conflict as demons.

I suppose some people might have found that acceptable, but since a great many did not, it brought into being the two axis system that we have. Personally, I consider myself neutral with regard to law and chaos, and as such it would hardily surprise anyone that I consider it a non-descriptive and meaningless distinction (just as someone neutral with respect to good and evil might find them to be meaningless distinctions, for example see some of the philosophy expoused in Chronicles of the Dragonlance). But, since I'm required by my position as a DM to be impartial, I try to make the most of it and make as much meaning out of the terms as I can.

My own take is more along the stasis/change, society/individuality POV. I think 3rd edition really confused the issue by (more strongly) associating chaos with unpredictability, and law with self-discipline. Those aren't philosophical stances, but personality traits.

Agreed.
 

starwed

First Post
Batman (in his more recent incarnations) is Chaotic; he's a vigilante who often breaks the law in his pursuit of justice.

Batman is Lawful; he disregards the rights of individuals, not hesitating to beat information out of criminals in order to protect the community.
Ah yes, the moral flexibility of baman... :)
 

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